0:12 to begin with. Can you tell us something about your past where you were born and where you had your education and when you joined Navy? Well, >> first of all, I'm glad all these press reporters are here. I hope you'll put it in tomorrow's 0:32 newspaper. Write your bite on one of the days. >> Okay. Your question was where I was born. >> Where you born and where you had education? Then you joined the Navy. I was born in what is now known as 0:50 Chennai but then Madras during the about 2 months after World War II started on the 5th of November 1939 and then um my father was working there. We moved to Kimore then to Karachi before 1:07 uh partition when there was no Pakistan and then when partition came we moved to Delhi and that's where I grew up as a boy from the time I was 8 years old and then I joined the Navy when I was 1:24 15. I finished high school and I joined the Navy. >> You think you're Indian or something? Yeah, I joined the National Defense Academy as a cadet when I was 15 years old. >> And at what age you came to know the Lord as your personal savior? 1:40 >> Well, I really don't know when I came to know Jesus because my father was a believer and grew up in a god-fearing home and I many times I accepted Jesus in my heart. I'm sure it was only once was the real time but I was never sure. 1:58 So maybe from the age of 13 to the age of 19, I must have asked Jesus to come into my heart a 100 times or a thousand times. I don't know. But one of those times was the real time. And I don't know which one it was. I'm like a man who doesn't 2:14 know his birthday. But uh I became sure of my salvation only when I was 19 and a half. the same month I was commissioned as an officer in the Navy in July 59 uh by one verse John 6:37 2:34 him that cometh to me Jesus said I'll never cast out I said Lord I've come to you hundreds of times he said well I never cast you out I said Lord today I'm going to believe it and I dropped an anchor that day and my ship has never 2:46 drifted from that day till today I've never doubted my salvation so that's 44 and 1/2 years ago Uh can I interrupt you for a moment? We want to get the Tamil press sitting down there. >> Okay. >> And more comfortable. >> Brother, you can put some chairs there 3:04 and probably translate there itself. >> You brothers at the back also can make yourself more comfortable. >> Tamil newspapers are also important. >> Yeah. Um yeah, we'll continue. 3:29 If you need more chairs, you can pick them up from upstairs or somewhere. Uh Brother Zach, I understand that you had a good upbringing in your family. 3:45 I understand that your parents were godly and I understand that uh perhaps you did not go out in the world and live a wicked life. But how did you know 4:02 that you were really saved? How did you know that your sins were forgiven? Was it anything because because of your upbringing or because you know you did a number of good things and you felt accepted before God? How did you really 4:19 know that uh you were born again? You know, I think I had the problem that a lot of children have who are brought up in good god-fearing homes. We haven't killed anybody and haven't 4:36 robbed banks and things like that. Um and so it's sometimes a bit difficult for people who are brought up in such families first of all to realize that they are also sinners just like anybody else. I think those of you who are 4:55 brought up in god-fearing homes will feel that not um and I don't think I had an such an awareness of sin at that time as I have today because our awareness of sin increases as we walk closer with God. But I knew I mean I knew my heart and I 5:14 knew that it was bad just like anybody else's heart. Even if I even and if I didn't do things on the outside, I realized a little bit I know much more today that um it doesn't make me better than others. It just means that I didn't 5:31 have the opportunity. I mean, if you tie up a fierce lion inside a cage of of a zoo and you go past it and the lion says, "I didn't bite anybody today." It doesn't mean anything. The question is, if the lion was in the forest, it would have 5:48 probably bitten and killed so many people. You put the same lion in a cage, it doesn't hurt anybody. It's not a proof that it's any better. Or you put a snake under a piece of glass and it says I didn't sting anybody. And I feel I was 6:03 like that. My circumstances were such that I did not have the freedom to sin like other people. And that's the only thing that prevented me from sinning like other people. And therefore, I was not really better. I mean, a cro cobra 6:19 inside a glass case is no different from a cobra in the wild. There's equal poison in both. Even though the cobra in the wild may have killed so many, and the cobra inside the case says, "I have not killed anyone." So, that's a little 6:33 picture I gradually realized. I don't think I understood it all in the beginning, but I realized that God sees the heart and I'm no better than anybody else. Even if I've not done those things on the outside, I I am a believer in the 6:49 fact that God in his great sovereignty says, "You did not choose me. I chose you." So that humbles me. I'm not better than my brother. I'm not better than anybody else. But God chose me like he chose you. And today I'm a child of God 7:07 because of that. I I just became aware that Jesus loved me. It was not to me at that time to be honest. It was not so much a consciousness of sin. I think consciousness of sin has come to me more only in the last few years since we have 7:19 started CFC. >> But how did you know that you became a child of God? >> Yeah. I think it was the fact that God loved me that made me say Lord I have to give my life to you and um it was that assurance of that verse I as I said him that 7:36 cometh to me I'll not cast out which gave me the assurance that I was a child of God. I couldn't explain it as clearly as I can now then but I knew I was alive. >> What convinced you that God really accepted you and God loved you? 7:50 >> I think it was just God's word. I had no experience. >> The specific word that you got? Yeah, this verse John 6:37. I want to tell all of you for your benefit that I've never seen any light or heard any voices or I've never seen any angels in my life. 8:06 I've not had what people call visions and I've had a few dreams when I eat too much at night, but which are meaningless. I I would say I've had maybe 14, 15 or 20 meaningful dreams also which I believe the Lord gave 8:24 But um these fantastic experiences other people speak about I've never had them. I've lived more by faith not by sight. >> Does any of your past u sort of haunt you? Did it ever trouble you to make you doubt that God had 8:42 accepted you or loved you? No, I I don't know why it is, but somehow I I've never doubted God's love for me. I must say there have been times in my life where 9:01 I've doubted whether God would protect me from some harm. uh particularly when I realized that so many of God's children through the ages have u you know been persecuted and harassed and God allowed them to be eaten by lions and 9:20 uh I'm willing for that but sometimes such fears have come in the past they become less as time goes on but I can't say that I ever felt God doesn't love me no >> but don't you remember a day when the Lord touched you or changed your life 9:34 >> no I don't remember any one day like that I don't have I'm exactly like a man who doesn't know his birthday. >> Were you tempted to doubt your salvation at any time? You tempted to doubt whether your sins were really forgiven. 9:46 >> I've not only been tempted to doubt my salvation, I've been tempted to doubt the existence of God uh itself. Is there a God? There are times in my life when I look back over 45 years when I prayed for something earnestly and nothing happened. I was 10:05 tempted. I mean is there somebody listening to all this I'm saying or am I just talking into the air? Okay. I felt it was safer to believe there is somebody there than to the other was worse to think there was nobody up there in heaven. Uh but 10:21 gradually as I've grown um older, I've understood that all this was necessary for me to have what we call naked faith with no external sign of 10:37 anything. Blind naked faith, God is there. And you only know in your spirit that there's a real God. That's how it's been for me. I have not had spectacular experiences like other people have. >> What impact did it really make on your 10:54 life? Was there a change? Did you notice a change in your attitude? A change in your life? >> Well, that's one thing that definitely happened. I had a radical change in my ambitions because I was doing so well in the Navy 11:09 that I long because I was doing well, I thought I will want to end up as the admiral of the Navy. That was really my ambition. and I worked hard at it and that changed completely. I knew that if I was a Christian now, I had no 11:23 intention of leaving my job. But I found in different situations that if I'm going to stand up and not do wrong things, be a Christian, I just could not make it to the top. I would have to compromise my convictions to make it to 11:35 the top. And I was not willing to compromise my conviction. That was one change that came. The other change was I can't explain it but like exactly like a baby cries out for milk and screams. You know you've heard babies screaming 11:52 and you know that as soon as it get its mother's milk it's just quiet. I had a similar passion to read the Bible and study it. I didn't know the Bible but I found a tremendous thirst for the milk of God's word. I can't explain it. Did 12:09 you ever tell about your experience to your any of your friends? >> Oh, yes. Everybody >> shy or limited? >> Well, I was shy. I think I'm still shy. Very shy. I'm basically a shy person. I have to battle it to I would always 12:26 rather be at the back rather than the front. I stand in front only because God wants me to. I I But I've been a shy person. I was much more shy when I was young. I'm not this outgoing type of person that other people are. I used to 12:40 envy people who are outgoing. You know, people who are called the life and soul of a party. We have parties in the Navy where some some people were the life and soul of the party. They would um cheer everybody up and slap people on the back and I 12:55 would be standing in the corner with my glass of orange juice. Um but uh I but everybody knew that I was a Christian. Did anyone make fun of you? >> Oh, yes. They'd call me Holy Joe and all types of I mean, not as bad names as 13:11 Christians call me nowadays, but they were a little more decent. The heathen are usually a little more decent, but uh that's like, you know, the Romans never called Jesus by as bad names as the Pharisees did. Anyway, but 13:26 they made fun of me and that was that made me strong um to stand up for Christ. And every opportunity I got, I would fast tracks out and um various things like that. Everybody knew I was a Christian. I used to carry a Bible and 13:39 in a little cover. Once when I was going out of the ship with this little bag, one of the sailors, junior sailors, asked me, "Sir, uh do you have a private um insurance job on the side or something? You go around with this bag." 13:51 I said, "Yeah, I do. I insuring people for eternity." And these opportunities like that I got to share God's word. >> Were you ever discouraged? Did you lose faith? Did you lose courage at any time? What was it that really gave you a good 14:07 foundation in your Christian life? I think after I was born again for 16 years, I was frequently discouraged. Not all the time. If I had some success in my ministry or something exciting happened or I got a promotion in my job, 14:26 uh then I wouldn't be discouraged. I'd be excited. But it didn't seem to last long because I >> You had up and down experience now. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was all up and down for 16 years. Sometimes up and sometimes down. Uh you know, if we did something 14:40 exciting, I'd be up. If nothing was happening, it was all just daily routine, monotonous routine, then I'd be discouraged. And uh but then the thing that changed it was when I got filled with the Holy Spirit and began to 14:54 understand the way of the cross. Uh then things really changed. >> Do you go to a brethren church? Is it >> in the beginning? I was baptized with the brethren assembly and that's where I really developed a love for the word of 15:07 God. Yeah. That's where I was going first. >> When did you get baptized in water? >> I got baptized you were born again or some time. I took some I took some time you know I mean I was christened as a child by my parents but I was baptized 15:23 as a believer one and a half years after I was saved because I heard different people saying you know it doesn't matter these things are not important if you don't get baptized you can stay in the Jacobite church and be a witness there 15:37 that's where people need you so I decided to study the Bible and I studied the New Testament and I discovered that there's no child baptism there's only believers baptism and um then I didn't obey it because I was still thinking what will I lose the 15:53 opportunity to witness in my own other denomination and then every time I knelt down God would say you're not listening to me why should I listen to you and for one and a half years though I was saved I made no progress in my life till I got 16:07 baptized >> did water baptism make any difference in your life >> yeah I think that was the time when I really began to take my Christian life seriously I mean I was born again. I had no doubt about it. I went to meetings regularly 16:19 but my Christian life became really serious after I was baptized. >> Coming back to this up and down experience you said you said 16 years is it? >> Y >> now um you tell us that after you were baptized in the Holy Spirit that means 16:34 to say you had no up and down experience. >> Well I don't think it was only baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think if I was baptized in the Holy Spirit when I was you see my baptism in the Holy Spirit by the way I can't find foundation for it 16:48 in scripture but I seem to get it in two stages. Now I don't don't ask me for a scripture because everybody got it in one stage in the New Testament but some unbelieving creatures like me get it in two stages. One was I was really seeking 17:02 God for power and uh way back in ' 63 I really believe God met with me because I saw some results in my ministry and things like that. >> Well, you were in Navy you were already in the ministry is it? >> Yeah, when I was in the Navy I started 17:16 preaching and I was um glad that I was already a little bald then. >> Was it a gift you had or >> No, baldness was also a gift >> because I'll tell you why. Because I used to get up in these conventions to speak and I was only 23 years old and 17:36 because I was bald, people would think I was 35 and they would listen to me. So otherwise they wouldn't care. This what is a young 22-y old fellow going to say? So I could see God had a purpose in everything. And um I I was I was serving 17:49 the Lord. Even then I really studied the word. I would come back home, study the word, study the word, study the word, pray. God gave me a gift to speak. I can't say that. That's how I began to minister the word when I was in the 17:59 Navy. Yeah. So after my baptism, I began to grow spiritually. >> Were you a prejudice against the baptism of the Holy Spirit since you come from a brethren background? >> Yeah. And the Brethren assembly, they don't preach about baptism of the Holy 18:10 Spirit. So I never thought about baptism of the Holy Spirit. >> So how did you get interested in it? >> Yeah. Because I brethren assembly taught me to study the word which is a good thing. When I study the word, I found 18:19 there was such a thing called baptism in the holy spirit. And I used to read a little paper in those days called Herald of his coming which where I read of the experiences of people like Moody and Finny and these people were baptized in 18:30 the Holy Spirit and their whole life was changed and so I began to seek God for it. I knew the brethren couldn't help me so I didn't go to them. I went to some Pentecostal churches and that was so noisy and so r and one pastor told me to 18:42 keep on saying hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah. I said no I'm not going to say that. I I want what the I came back home discouraged and I said Lord I don't want the what the brethren have. I don't want the power of the Pentecostals have. 18:52 I want what Peter, James, and John got on the day of Pentecost. If it takes me 10 years to get it, I'm going to get it. And I sought God. And that's as I said in two stages. First, God met with me in 63 and then later on 10 12 years later 19:05 in 75. >> But how did you have the assurance that you were baptized in the Holy Spirit? >> Initially by faith. Uh I was praying with a brother here in my house visiting brother to Bangalore and I told him see I never seemed to be able to believe. I 19:20 had a hunger but I couldn't believe that the Lord had really baptized me in the Holy Spirit. >> You had any feeling or >> I had no feeling and and he he he told me one sentence sometimes you know how one sentence can liberate you. He said 19:34 Zach it is unthinkable that God can call you to serve him and then refuse to give you his power to serve him. That sounded very logical to me. I was sure God had called me and uh then 19:51 u I said yeah that's right. So then as I was praying, he rebuked the spirit of unbelief that was binding me and he laid hands on me and I said, "Lord, thank you. I believe I have received right now." And I received by faith and as I 20:11 was praying, I spoke in tonesues. But the tones came after I believed, not before. Was there any gap or >> I was just in the I prayed only for less than 5 minutes and I suddenly found myself saying something I didn't want to 20:23 say and then I stopped and continued in English and again said something I didn't want to say and then I asked this brother hey did I what did I did you hear something he said yes you spoke in tongues >> oh >> do you still exercise the gift of 20:37 tongues use it >> yes I do I wish I would do it more often but um certainly you know more in times of pressure. Uh almost every worship meeting I will worship the Lord in tongues or in a prayer meeting together 20:55 or in a time of pressure or when confronted with a demonpossessed person. Um yeah I do exercise it. >> What was it that really brought stability in your life? Were the times that you backslid? Yeah, in those 16 years frequently 21:12 um sometimes pretty badly but always inwardly my outward testimony was always good which made it worse because I became a hypocrite and um it was in that state of hypocrisy that the Lord met me the second time in 75 but since then I 21:26 would say stability has come through a number of things one this absolute assurance that my past sins are all blotted out by the blood of Christ and another thing that's brought stability in my life is rock solid promises of scripture in 21:41 God's word as I've come to know God's word and quote God's word to the devil and the third is this baptism in the Holy Spirit and I would say a fourth thing is that the Lord has shown me that I must die to myself every day uh that's 21:55 that's also brought stability and the fifth is the fellowship particularly the fellowship that I've experienced in CFC with wholehearted brothers >> but after you were baptized in the Holy Spirit did you find the Christian life 22:06 to be tough tough or heavy or boring? >> I think more tough than before. >> I've had more opposition after being baptized in the Holy Spirit, more misunderstanding. Well, I'll tell you this, you know, I remember it was in 22:21 January 75 that the Lord met with me the second time. It was like a complete experience. uh till then my baptism of the holy spirit was something like you know you buy a encyclopedia set and two three volumes are missing and then you 22:35 get those two three volumes and then the whole set is complete. My baptism of the holy spirit was like that and then um I I said well if this is something really from God because you know the next day after I spoke in tongues I had all types 22:48 of doubt did I make it up yesterday? Was it really from God? Was it really from me? I said okay if it is really from God I will start reading the New Testament all over again and let me see if the Holy Spirit teaches me something which 23:01 I've not known for 16 years of study of the Bible and I tell you I've learned a lot of things since 75 which I never knew before. Uh and as I I started with Matthew chapter 1 and I wanted to know I was looking for assurance of baptism 23:18 of the Holy Spirit and I thought boy Matthew this so and so begat so and so and so and so begat so and so and so I was not getting any assurance from who begat who the whole half the chapter was all this and then all of a sudden I came to the 23:32 end of Matthew chapter 1 where the angel says to Joseph this thing that has come to Mary is from the Holy Spirit. Oh, that is exactly the word I was looking for. And then the Lord began to speak to me. This is from the Holy Spirit. But 23:47 just like it was only Mary who knew it and all the others misunderstood her thinking that is not Holy Spirit. Your experience also you know it but everybody else will misunderstand you from now on. And like Mary had to bear a 24:01 shame because the spirit came upon her. You will have to bear shame from now on. And then the Lord said to me, just like Mary um had the spirit come upon her to produce Jesus in her, the Holy Spirit has come upon you also to produce Jesus in you. 24:20 And the Lord said, "This gift of tongues is so abused and misunderstood in the world. Now I want you to take that gift and adorn it with a Christlike life so that people will once again have faith in this gift." >> Coming back to this subject of 24:35 backsliding. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think you'd agree that many young people face this uh constantly. What was the cause of backsliding in your life? How long did you remain in a backsliden condition? And how did you come out of 24:48 >> Do you think it's normal for a Christian to backslide? >> Is it normal? >> Well, it's the experience of many Christians, but I don't believe it's God's will. It's not what God has planned as normal, but it is normal in 25:01 the lives of many Christians. And um you know these I I picture is the five fingers of the Christian life. Absolute assurance number one that the blood of Christ has cleansed me. Uh tremendous hunger for God's word number 25:16 two to study it to know it well. Third power of the Holy Spirit to be filled with the Holy Spirit continuously not just one experience. Fourth taking up the cross every day dying to yourself. And fifth, seeking fellowship with other 25:29 god-fearing people. With five fingers, you can hold something very tight. You can hold it with two fingers also, but it's not so tight. Somebody can pull it out of your hand. So, you can be born again. You have accepted Christ, you 25:46 love the word, you can hold the uh I suppose you can balance it with one thumb also, but it's a bit tough. But if you have five fingers, you have a solid grip on the Christian life. And people backslide when they gradually begin to 25:58 lose maybe they don't value fellowship number one finger goes or they don't take up the cross every day another finger goes they don't seek to be continuously filled with the Holy Spirit another finger goes or they don't or 26:11 they don't um read God's word meditate not read meditate on God's word whether they read it or not >> many people tell me that they don't find the Bible interesting button >> many people tell me that they don't find the Bible interesting how do you find 26:23 the Bible interesting Well, I also find the Bible quite boring sometimes to tell you honestly. I don't feel like reading the Bible many days. But it's like um I say even if I don't feel like I mean it's like there were days when in the 26:38 Navy when I didn't feel like going to work but I still went to work whether it was raining or not. Uh there were days I suppose when I was a child when I didn't feel like going to school I suppose my parents forced me to go to school. Um 26:50 yeah there were many things in life which we don't feel like doing but we still do but you know you go to those of you who work you go to work when you feel like it or not you don't feel like going to school or college some days you 27:02 still go but when it comes to the Bible people say oh when I feel like I'll read it that's not correct whether you feel like it or don't feel like it you read it >> whether it's interesting or not >> whether it's interesting or not 27:13 >> because it does something for you and that's what I found the discipline of reading the scripture whether you whether you find it boring. There are days when I read something. Well, I got nothing from it to tell you honestly I got nothing. I just read 27:29 through I got some information. No. Okay. But sometime during the day God may speak to me not from that verse but it's that discipline of just reading. You know I remember hearing a story I'll never forget. You know what a 27:44 sieve is? A sie is something where you strain tea leaves or so one person was telling another brother my mind is like a sieve you know however much I put God's word into it it all goes out like water but 28:02 he that man was a godly man he said you know you put sieve under a tap it doesn't hold a bit of water but have you seen how clean the sieve becomes after all the water flows through it so never mind if your mind is I can save it 28:16 becomes clean. That was good for me. >> Did you have some good young people as friends during your youth? >> Uh I can't say that in the days where I was there very few who were wholehearted. Were you lonely then? 28:34 >> I was very lonely spiritually. For example, when I used to go and preach in the streets of Kochin, nobody came with me. Not one person from the assembly. I would go there and get some other brother from some other full-time worker 28:46 to come and translate for me and I would stand in every street in coaching and preach. But I had a passion for Christ and the Lord what the Lord told me when I was 20 21 years 23 years old was don't look at other people you'll be 28:59 disappointed. >> How did you get that passion for the Lord? >> Look at me. So I did learn to look at Jesus. Sorry. >> How did you get that passion for the Lord? >> I don't know. I I I think it came by meditating on two things. 29:12 how much Jesus loved me and how much I had been forgiven. Two things just two things you know Jesus said we we uh Jesus said those who are forgiven much love much and the Bible says we love him because he first loved us. So those are 29:27 the two things that make us love the lord more and I I can say I meditated much on the cross. I didn't understand all the deeper meaning of the cross that I know today but I knew this that Jesus loved me and I just meditated on that. 29:40 That's about the only thing I knew those days. >> But did you have any interest in sports or music? Are you reading the Bible all the time? >> Well, when I was a young boy, I used to play cricket. I wasn't very good at other games. I 29:53 was more the studioious type, but I did have interest in playing cricket. And I would go out to play regularly. Um, then >> when I was in the Navy, I played some squash. So, I did play games and I had some interest in it. I was never very 30:11 great at it but and I was very interested as a young boy to watch. I would go sit and see India versus West Indies 5 days sitting in the stadium. >> I was very interested in those things. >> Now does it mean that after you became a 30:24 Christian you you kept away from other friends or did you still have friends >> who in the Navy >> who were not Christians? >> Yeah, I had some very good friends who were not Christians in the Navy but they would know that I was a Christian. Who 30:39 are your best friends? >> Well, um I had good friends in the Navy, but my whenever I went to a shore, I would always find fellowship with some local church. My best friends were always in a local church, but I kept a very good relationship with my secular 30:55 colleagues and I I wasn't sort of obnoxious by always trying to preach to them. I was very normal and friendly with them. And I never tried to thrust religion down people's throats. I wanted to be a witness. I didn't have much 31:07 wisdom but um the only person I was very unwise in preaching to was my own brother. Every letter was a long sermon and when he got married he told his wife because of religion I lost a brother. I heard that I felt so bad. I went and 31:26 apologized to him. I said I'm really sorry that I didn't mean to be a preacher to you. I just want to be a friend to you and we are very good friends today. Did you think you were fanatical or >> I think a lot of people thought I was 31:36 fanatical but I probably was also but I gradually sobered up. I think one of the lacks I had was I didn't have a good mentor. A mentor means someone who could whom I could go as a father like a Timothy to a Paul. I always wanted 31:53 somebody like that. I think the closest I ever came to that was somebody like brother Bak Singh but he didn't have much time to I didn't have much time with him. And so there was nobody locally where I was living who I really 32:03 respected as a godly man who knew God. So I was pretty much on my own. So I had to sort of seek God on my own. And I probably did a lot of foolish things because of that. If there was some older brother around, he would have probably 32:15 given me a little of advice which I didn't have. >> So many young people are having so much problems in their thought life. Did you have any problem in your youth? >> Oh, sure. I was 100% normal. You were always reading the Bible and you know 32:26 you were preaching and >> despite all that all the reading of the Bible and all the preaching you still have tremendous problems with your thought life and also tremendous wandering thoughts when you pray. Even now when I pray my thoughts begin to 32:41 wander. Um I can't it's not easy to concentrate. I have a flesh which I'm constantly reminded of and I keep battling it. So it's like that. What about all these temptations that young people face? You would have faced in 32:57 your youth, you know, temptation to >> uh pornographic literature and >> jokes and filthy jokes and it was that difficult for you? >> I was tempted with all of those things, but because I was converted when I was 19, I think I was protected. 33:17 But uh it was, you know, for example, I used to go to the movies. I used to take other people to the movies. And then I got converted and I remember I said now I can't go to the movies anymore. And I remember that first day 33:30 in 1959 when two of my friends asked me to come with them to a cinema. We had a cinema inside the naval base. And I just did not have the courage to say to them no I'm a Christian now. I don't go to these things. And so we walked towards the cinema 33:49 theater and I was crying out to God. Oh God, please save me from this situation somehow or the other. And we walked all the way up to the cinema theater and there was a big notice there saying the real did not arrive so today's cinema is 34:02 cancelled. I was so happy and but then I came home the Lord said to me I'm not going to do that for you next time. You got to tell them yourself that you're not going. But that was such an encouragement to me that even after 44 years I haven't 34:20 forgotten it that that time when I really didn't want to and I didn't have the courage to say no God helped me. So um I was tempted in so many ways but it was a battle. It was a battle. It was a battle and what I want to say to all of 34:34 you people is if you fight the battle if you fight the battle you'll find one day you've overcome. >> Yeah. You know, it's the fact is the the fact that you're tempted doesn't mean anything serious. And even the fact that 34:51 you fall if you hate it and you fight it and that's what's really helped me and you know I it doesn't interest me. The time comes when you it may take longer with some people and less time with some people but I want to encourage you to 35:05 keep fighting that battle. That's the main thing. >> Sorry. When you were in Navy, were you thinking of remaining single or were you anytime interested in any girls or? >> Well, you know, when I was about 23 years old, I I mean, I was a normal human being 35:22 attracted to girls probably from the time I was 13 or 12, I don't know, just like anybody else. But, um, I didn't have the boldness to approach any girl, you know. So, that's what I think protected me. Indian culture was 35:37 much more rigid and stiff 50 years ago than it is today. And uh uh the thing is when I was because I became a Christian then I was when I was 23 years old I read a verse in the Bible book of Jeremiah where and I marked it 35:55 in my Bible and I where the Lord said Jeremiah that you must not take a wife in this place and I wrote that down and I felt God had spoken to me and I was convinced on the basis of that verse when I was about 23 years old that I was 36:09 going to be single for the rest of my life. I was absolutely convinced of it because I wanted to obey God. I felt that's what God told me to do and I obeyed him and I and I saw from that day onwards by God's grace I never looked at 36:25 a girl and considered as her as a prospective marriage partner. Every proposal that came to me I'd say sorry I'm not getting married. So what do you >> and that predicted me for that period because I see that God allowed me to 36:40 think like that because he wanted me to study the scriptures instead of just going around looking at find out is this my partner is that my partner >> then how did you get interest in marriage later? >> Yeah. Well when I left the Navy I was 26 36:53 and 1/2 years old when I left the Navy. >> Instantly what made you leave the Navy brother? >> Okay. Uh when I was 24 and a half, I used to travel around with brother Bak Singh during my holiday time. We used to get 60 days leave every year and I used 37:07 to travel around with brother Bak Singh to different places, preach in different places and I found tremendous liberty in preaching. I found I had a real gift in preaching when I was 23 years old. Even brother Bak Singh recognized it and I 37:22 was the youngest person he ever invited to speak in his convocation. Um and um and that message by the way is on the website a new vessel full of salt which I preached when 63 which is 40 years ago. I found I had a gift and I found this 37:39 tremendous need everywhere and I felt boy it looks as if I can do more good going around preaching than since God's given me a gift than being in the Navy. So as that burden grew one day when I was reading the scriptures in Isaiah 49 37:58 that was my daily portion sitting in a train coming from KGF with brother Bak Singh to Bangalore in in interestingly uh we stopped at Bangaret to change trains and by the time God had already spoken to me in that short journey from 38:14 Isaiah 49 it was a clear call for me from that uh which I'd been thinking of before that I must leave And while I was sitting in Bangar station um thinking about this, brother Bak Singh who has known me for a number of years came up to me and asked me we were 38:33 all waiting to catch the train. When are you thinking of leaving the Navy? I said this man's a prophet. He knows what I'm thinking about. God had spoken to him to confirm to me what I had already been thinking. I said brother I 38:48 just decided to leave. And so we came here to Bangalore to the house of worship Herman and I got up there and I said I've decided to leave the navy. I went back to coin and I put in my resignation. Just when I went back 39:02 those I got an order from naval headquarters that I had been selected for the most prestigious course that any officer of my rank could get. It was just like the devil offering me all the kingdoms of the world at that very moment. And uh I put in my 39:21 resignation and my senior officer said, "You're a fool. There are other people who try so hard for this course and don't get it. You got it so easily. Are you sure? Go back and think about it." I said, "Sir, I've decided I'm not 39:33 interested in this." >> So you thought of marriage after leaving Navy? >> After leaving but I didn't they didn't release me for 2 years. I kept saying because I said to naval headquarters Jesus Christ has called me for his work. 39:43 They said we couldn't care less for that. You got to work here because they had spent so many lakhs training me. And so when I began to travel around, I found it was very dangerous cuz you know you stand up in the pullpit and so many 39:56 girls are eyeing you and so many mothers of girls are eyeing you and >> but you only got the verse that you had to be single. >> Sorry. >> You only got the verse that you had to be single. >> Yeah. But um I said Lord this is I don't 40:09 find what am I going to do? I mean in a moment of weakness I may suddenly say yes to somebody. I got really scared as I was traveling around and I went back to that verse and the Lord it says there you shall not marry in this place. Then I realized it 40:28 was as long as I was in the Navy that I was not to get married. It became clear to me. Otherwise I had a struggle with that verse. But the Lord hid that part from me all the years I was in the Navy. And then when I left um of course I had no 40:43 job, no salary. I was I decided I would never consider marriage as long as I was in the Navy. So I knew that if somebody married me and I didn't I was bald and I had everything against me. So if somebody married me it was only for me 40:57 for spiritual reasons. So that's how it >> So how did you how did you decide to marry? >> Yeah. Well uh you see our Indian culture is such that you can't take people out for a date or anything like that. But it's 41:16 very interesting that when I was in the Navy uh when I was about 24 years old uh I was invited to speak um at the at a retreat for students. I used to 41:34 minister among students, young people when I was in the Navy and um there was a there was a the chairman of Clarence School here was a man called Alva. He was a leftenant those days. We were good friends because we used to have meetings 41:50 together. He was in the same assembly and his father-in-law came to Cochin and heard me preach and um his father-in-law was a professor in CMC Valor and so when he heard me preach he went back to CMC Valor and told the students you got to 42:07 get this man from the Navy to come here and speak and they the sec the secretary of that students union was a young sister called Annie um and And she said, "We don't want any naval people here. We want some serious Christians." And so he said, "No, you 42:27 call him." So she wrote a letter to me, "Dear brother in Christ, we would like to invite you." I didn't know who she was and she didn't know who I was. >> But she did any of your meetings before. 42:45 I'm amazed at God from heaven watching all this with a twinkle in his eye because he knew the future and I didn't know. And I replied, "Okay, dear sister, thank you very much for your uh 43:03 um I didn't know who she was, just a name to me." And I went there and I preached and boy, it was real revival. They never had the hall got so filled they had to change the hall to another place and then we had meetings in the hospital CMC 43:21 hospital the place was packed out and that's where I first saw her but of course I was not getting married so the question didn't arise but did you talk to her >> maybe praise the lord sister no when you saw her were you attracted 43:37 to her um okay the question is when I saw her was I attracted to her. Well, uh we must ask her that she was a tell us. This is hard talk. [Music] 44:06 This is something very interesting. >> Now this is real hard talk now. We have both of them up here. >> No, you can answer that Rosac again. Were you attracted? >> Yeah. No, he's asked her whether she was attracted. 44:23 >> Okay. >> No doubt about that. Well um you know I I had a struggle with it because I had I had disciplined myself not to be attracted. So you know I used to preach 44:43 in a peculiar way those days. I would turn to the brothers and I would stand like this. I said I don't want to be tempted. I'm a young man and I've got to preach. I would stand like this every time I preach. And um I would be very formal 44:57 and very >> stiff and everything else. But then after that when I began to uh consider marriage I thought about her. I said well she's a doctor. She's not going to marry some jobless guy like me and I 45:15 don't know where she is. And then um brother Bak Singh one day called me and said I've got somebody in mind for you. He said Annie because she used to go to that assembly and there was a brother called Chandapillah who was in 45:30 charge of the students un he was the first general secretary of USI he called me one day and said brother Zach I've got somebody in mind for you and that's Annie two people said the same thing and then I I of course I had no problem 45:43 accepting it because uh I was attracted but I still wanted to be sure of God's will and uh I said Lord I I don't know whether is Is she wholehearted? Is she willing to pay the price of a difficult life? And um I so when we did meet I 46:03 told her listen I don't know where I'm going to live. I I may live in a hut. I may go to Rajasthan. I don't know what my ministry is. I've just left the Navy 2 years ago or a year ago. It was just one year after I left. I don't know what 46:13 I'm going to do. I have no money. And u I painted the bleakest darkest picture I could ever paint of the future. And I said don't give me an answer. think about it for three days. I didn't say three years, three days. And uh of course I hoped that her answer 46:31 would be yes, but and I inquired from other people and somebody told me that she was all her colleagues were going to America and she was going to work in a leprosy hospital. And I said, "Well, that's a good sign." And then somebody else told me that even 46:44 though she was a doctor, she was sleeping on the floor in the general ward to help some poor uh sister who was admitted. I said, "Well, that's the type of person I want." >> But were you drawn to her because she was a doctor or was it any other 46:56 factors, brother? >> I couldn't care less whether she was a doctor. If she was a sweeper, that would be fine, too. >> I I never cared for being a Mallayali. I never cared for being >> What are the qualities you're looking 47:08 for? What are the qualities you're looking for? >> I wanted someone who was sold out for God. I wanted someone who was willing to suffer anything for Jesus Christ. I wanted someone who cared for the poor and who cared because most of India is 47:22 poor people and who was willing to serve at any cost to themselves. >> But you know these days brother many want good-looking girls and educated girls and all the spiritual >> I wasn't good-looking so how could I ask for I think we must ask either 47:41 what was it that drew you to brother Zach and were you attracted to him? Was it love at first sight? What was it? >> Um, since it's uh press conference, I think I have to be very careful in what I say. 47:58 >> But definitely I had a lot of admiration for him. Uh, when I heard him speak, um, >> was it because sister? >> Yeah. >> Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. >> I I found him handsome. one more mic. 48:27 >> But when I heard him speak at the retreat, I felt that uh uh God was speaking speaking to me uh telling me that I should remain single and I should go to the leprosy hospital and uh not think of marriage. That's how his 48:44 message is. >> You wanted to sing it too. >> I felt like God wanted me to uh think of him first of all. >> But uh >> he means him. >> Oh, God. But um when I was when I was just before going to the leprosy hospital, brother 49:03 Bak Singh called me to Medas and he spoke to me uh to consider Zach and pray about it. That's how I started. So how long did it take uh for you to know that Zach was the right one for you? because brother Bak Singh had suggested I was 49:18 more or less inclined and I had al also heard brother I mean my husband speak so heard him speak and uh so I knew that uh I would like to marry a person I mean he's my hero so I would like to marry Zach but I I had to >> Zach how long did it take you to know 49:41 that was the right person >> but uh I was praying about it because I didn't know whether he would uh whether I didn't know that brother Bak Singh had already talked to Zach about me. So then I was just uh waiting for God to show me 49:56 whether my husband was interested in me or like that. And when I was praying I got some guidance that I should now consider marriage and uh but I had already committed that I was going to the leprosy hospital. So I was working 50:10 there and praying about it. But how much did you know? >> Um Zach came to the leprosy in Kari. There's a small training center. He came there and took some meetings and that's the time we talked very briefly about it and he asked me to pray about it and by 50:29 then brother Bak Singh had already spoken I mean hinted about it. So he told me to pray about it for 3 days and replied. So I prayed about it and I replied to him um that my answer what my answer was but he didn't get my reply 50:45 >> letter never the letter never came >> that letter didn't reach him >> and I was in a panic in life already >> I was wondering what happened waiting for the postman every day no letter no letter no letter no letter it's the sovereignty of God you know 51:04 it's like God saying who is more important in your life. Finally, it became so bad. I called her up. I said, "I told you to write after 3 days." Even if it's no. She said, "I wrote after 3 days." I said, "Yes." Oh. >> Yeah. I must say I fell in love. 51:26 >> Good. First of all, I rose up in love, not fell in love. >> But did you want to get to know her brother earlier? No, I didn't get I just knew that she really loved the Lord and um she had an interest in the books I was interested in about the way of the 51:42 cross and things like that. The biographies I read of people like Jim Elliot and things like that. Those are the type of stuff she was reading too. So we knew we had likeminded and our parents never knew about this. This was 51:54 entirely between Bak Singh and her and me. And after that, I told my parents and she told her parents. And it was um I mean, my parents said, "Okay." But her parents said, "No, we'll never let you marry this man. We didn't train you up 52:08 to be a doctor to get some fellow who doesn't have a I don't blame them. I think if some daughter of mine far away said she's marrying some full-time worker, I would have some questions in my mind, too." >> But then he finally agreed. 52:22 >> Yeah. >> Within 3 months. >> Yeah. And while we're on this subject, u I think everybody's awake now. Uh what would you say to young brothers and sisters attracted to one another? What 52:39 would you say about a young brother and sister may use the term falling in love with each other? And if they do, what is your advice? How should they conduct themselves? See, I personally don't believe there's anything wrong in 52:55 falling in love because I think we did both fall in love with each other, but the basis on which we loved each other was not physical. You see, um it's true that I'll tell you absolutely honestly that I found her very attractive physically and I still 53:13 do because beauty is not determined by these Miss Universe contests. Beauty is more than physical. It's a total thing. And uh as I see it, um it was the spiritual part which is 53:30 primary but not the only. I I felt that um it's perfectly right if you are drawn to a person because of spiritual values first, not just because you want to get married. Because some people just because they want to get married, get attracted to 53:48 somebody and they're very unhappy within 6 months they wish they hadn't got married. I've been married 35 years. I'll tell you the honest truth before God. I have seen numerous girls in many parts of the world. I've never never 54:01 never felt that I could ever have married any one of them. I mean my honest conviction is that if I hadn't married any I would probably have been single for the rest of my life because I just didn't find anybody. So it was not 54:14 a question of okay this is the only one available I better get married. It wasn't like that for me. For some people it may be I don't say it's wrong but for me it wasn't like that. And I pray that whoever gets married they'll be drawn to 54:28 someone through spiritual factors. And it maybe you see ours is in a sense we didn't go dating for so many days and then discover each other. We sought God. And I say God is not the prisoner of any culture. He's not bound to western culture or in 54:46 in the west they do it one way in the east they do it the other way. God is the one who leads the people who date and God's the one in India who leads the people who know God knows in their culture they cannot date. So what but 54:56 God is not the prisoner of a particular culture and whichever way we do it we God must lead us and um then we'll have a very happy marriage. >> How long did you have to wait? Did you'll have to wait till you got married 55:09 after? >> Yeah. Well, because her parents objected everybody, >> it was about 10 months after we ourselves decided that we would accept each other. A little over 10 55:27 months that we actually got married. >> So, uh, what would you say? I mean, in that time, how much did you know of each other? well by correspondence and she was living in the middle of Maharashtra and I was traveling here and there and 55:43 we could write letters but when her father said no then no correspondence he said then we mustn't we respect I believe that we must honor our parents I said your father is a believer we must honor him we will do what he says if he 55:59 says no we commit it to the lord and I didn't write and then when her father finally came home and agreed to it to my home that is to my parents home agreed to it then we could correspond more freely sister you're not looking for a 56:15 doctor to be married to is it I just wanted God's will in my life even when I was a medical student um I spent most of my free time with the um evangelical union and uh visiting the hospital and arranging meetings for 56:34 fellow students. So um I was a lot interested a lot in serving the lord. So I was not primarily interested in a doctor but sometimes I used to think that my my classmates who married doctors um they did well in their profession because both were doing the 56:53 same thing but in my case my go medical my goal was not my profession. >> So that was okay with me. I suppose you don't any regrets that you >> didn't marry a doctor? >> No, I have no regrets about that. 57:11 >> Now in this u in this time while you have waited for one another, I mean did you daydream and fantasy and >> Oh, sure. In a good way. Plenty. Plenty. Yeah. Uh brother Zach, you have mentioned on several occasions that many young people 57:31 backslid after marriage. Did you backslide after marriage or how did you overcome this problem? >> I I think I was I I was at the other extreme. I uh I was traveling 57:50 ministering and I continued traveling and ministering and sometimes left my wife for long periods. I would not recommend that today. I didn't have wisdom. I really sought to serve the Lord. I thought serving the Lord meant 58:05 that uh I got to where I'm married or not. If I have to go away for 3 weeks, I think within 2 months of my marriage, I left my wife and went off to Sri Lanka for quite some time for some meetings and I continued traveling continuously 58:20 even my first year of marriage. But I wouldn't recommend that right now. I think I was a bit foolish. I should have spent more time with my wife. But my understanding, you know, I mean, I sought to love the Lord. And um I think 58:34 one thing that helped me was we were very poor. And it's easier for rich people to backslide than poor people to backslide. When a poor person is poor and serving the Lord, we have to cling to the Lord. We don't even have money uh to survive. 58:50 I had no income and u all the money she earned she had to work for one year in our marriage because she had a bond to the hospital but that entire money which she worked for one year she sent to her parents because she had other brothers 59:05 and sister who were still studying so she sent all her first year salary that's the only year she ever worked in her life sent to her parents so we were very poor and I think that kept us close to the lord that's what I can 59:20 While you're on that uh subject, yeah, see you came from a family where, you know, maybe a wealthy middle-ass family, we'll say >> middle class, I would say, but not wealthy. We were average. >> I mean, my father was not a rich man. He 59:35 was um in the government service and just earned what he was a very honest person, never made any money more than any government servant would make. How did you all accommodate yourselves to a simple lifestyle after you got married? 59:49 >> I think both of us had decided that we were going to serve the Lord. And even when I was in the Navy, I used to discipline myself by sleeping on the floor. I think I can still sleep on the floor today. I would sometimes go 2 days 1:00:01 without food while I was on the ship, just drink some liquids to prepare myself to serve the Lord. um and try to kneel down and pray for a whole night and things I things which maybe they were just physical feats but I wanted to discipline myself and I wanted 1:00:21 knew that if I serve the Lord I have to live a very simple life so and I had given up all my money to God's work I didn't have any savings left when I left the Navy so we just accepted that we knew that Jesus was poor the apostles 1:00:34 were poor so we were in good company we just accepted We had asked I had asked you a question earlier maybe can give your opinion both you and sistani what is your opinion about um young people falling in love now we are in a country of mixed 1:00:53 cultures now in some cultures some of in some places people would like to have an arranged marriage what is your opinion of you know young people falling in love with each other and uh what would you first of or what is your opinion on that 1:01:09 and and then I'll ask you the next question. I don't think there's anything wrong with it if the attraction is purely based on something spiritual. But I would say that as soon as possible thereafter, you should tell your parents 1:01:25 about it in India because if you're considering marriage, I personally believe that we should get the blessing of parents if parents are born again believers. And um since her father was a born again believer, I knew that I have never met 1:01:41 him. he never met me. I told her that we will honor your parents and if until he says yes, I won't marry you. Uh if it means I have to wait, I'll wait. I'll wait 20 years, 30 years because I have faith in God that if it is God's will, 1:01:58 he'll speak to your father. And in 3 months, God spoke to her father. And he agreed without even seeing me. It's really amazing how he agreed without even seeing my face. >> Well, he didn't want to see you. No, no, no. >> He didn't want to see it. 1:02:13 >> No, he was naturally scared. Will, you know, whenever anybody gives a daughter to marriage, the first thing they think of is, uh, will this man be able to take care of my daughter? And secondly, is he trying to exploit her medical profession 1:02:28 to make her work and earn money because he's, you know, people go into full-time work. You know, you talk about in India today, a full-time worker. 90% of them are crooks. So naturally full-time workers got a bad impression. So how 1:02:43 does he know whether I'm in that 90% or the other 10%. I don't blame him one bit. But then um so he said he ruled it out. But then he used to in his business he used to travel all over India and he met some missionaries whom he had a 1:02:58 tremendous respect for and he asked their opinion and he asked u someone whether you know there's some guy called Zach Pune who wants to marry my daughter. Uh that chap said boy you'll be lucky if you get him or something 1:03:14 like that. So he God made him meet the right people and so he got some good reports from these people and when he heard those reports I think he was also a believer who feared God otherwise a person who was only interested in money would never 1:03:30 allow that he agreed to it and he told her okay so Stani what's your advice to young people who fall in love with each other and the second part of that question is if you agree with that how should they conduct themselves till they 1:03:46 get married. >> Um, if a girl is a believer, uh, definitely if she falls in love with an unbeliever, we should say immediately rule it out because we should not be unequally yolked with with unbelievers. So there's no question of falling in 1:04:03 love with unbelievers. But if you are interested and like a believer and pray about it, uh definitely we should tell uh our parents and wait for their consent. And um we should not do things on the sly um um and put ourselves in 1:04:22 embarrassing situations. But uh >> how would you know a person is a believer? How would you know that somebody is a believer? um his testimony he has accepted the lord and he loves the lord and uh his values when you talk to him you know what his 1:04:42 values are and like that we can know brother these days people don't think of any god's will they say must get to know one another before we get married what do you say for that >> I believe we must you can't marry somebody you don't know anything about 1:04:56 >> I could not have married her if somebody just said any human how can I find out who's any woman I don't know so you need to know something the thing is in the western countries they try to find out in one way and here in this country we 1:05:10 find out another way that's the only difference but in both cases we need some information on the basis of which we decide and it's a question of how we get that information in the western countries they tend to sort of go out 1:05:23 together and try to know each other or here because we can't do that and keep our testimony at least couldn't do it in days things may be different now. Um we had to depend on God more and say Lord give me correct information and I 1:05:37 believe God is God loves us so much that um he will give us the right information about a person within the limitations of our culture and find out from people who know about the other person and not blindly go ahead. I don't believe that I would ever 1:05:55 have fallen in love with anybody if I didn't feel that that person was a totally committed Christian. And I want to say now looking back after 35 years of marriage, you know marriage there are so many pressures and particularly when 1:06:08 you have children and if you if you men marry a girl who is not a wholehearted Christian, you know when some pressure comes, they don't know how to handle it. You'll have to be the one whom they lean on all the time for any spiritual 1:06:27 problem. So where the answer is only found in God. They don't know God so well. And you have to be everything. Well, I thank God I didn't have to be everything because she knew God as well as me. She could pray as much as me. If 1:06:40 I'm not there, she doesn't have to ask me. She can ask God. Whereas if you marry someone who doesn't know the Lord, who just was born again yesterday or something like that, what's going to happen when your children have a problem 1:06:52 later on in life and somebody who doesn't know the Lord and she lean on you as a crutch? You'll be it'll be like marrying a a lame person whom you have to carry around all the time who can't stand on her own feet. Maybe alive born 1:07:06 again but lame. You wouldn't marry a physically lame person because it would be a tremendous handicap. You should not marry a spiritually lame person even if the person is born again. That's why you need to really ask God to show you as 1:07:18 much as possible within the limitations of Indian culture whether this person can really be strong on his own. And if you girls are getting married, the thing that will help you the most is if you can say can I can I look up to this 1:07:30 person? Can this person is someone whom I can really look up to all my life? Not whom I have to accept as my head because the Bible says the husband is the head of the wife, but whom spontaneously I can look up to because he's my leader. 1:07:44 >> Brother, do you think the young people should consult anyone or they can just make decision on their own? >> See, love is sometimes at first sight. You have to admit that. >> I was blind. You see, >> uh it's blind also. But they say, but it 1:07:59 shouldn't be blind. In fact, the saying is keep both eyes open before you get married and one eye shut after you get married so that you don't see all the faults in your husband or wife. The time to keep one eye shut is after marriage. 1:08:15 Before marriage, keep both eyes wide open. So uh but the thing is when you see somebody who you find is really spiritually minded you really if you're a spiritually minded girl or boy you're naturally attracted to that person and 1:08:30 you in your mind you begin to consider boy that'll be good if I can marry that person there's nothing wrong with that feeling but you have to consider the possibilities of it and say are you compatible to one another in socially 1:08:41 economically educationally like that in the sense that can you speak the same language can you speak at the same level there are so many factors like this you got to think of and and then I would say the next step is in 1:08:55 our culture anyway if you got god-fearing parents tell your parents about it or if you don't have god-fearing parents go and tell an elder in whom you have confidence if you don't have confidence in your local church elder find some other elder brother in 1:09:10 somewhere else or some godly person need not be from your church who wh who who who will keep your confidence and advise you uh and who can help you. I would say definitely we must consult there's in the multitude of counselors there is 1:09:24 safety. >> What about some practical advice to young people who are interested in one another and they have to wait till they get married. What should they do? I think first of all they should decide whether they are definitely deciding to get married 1:09:40 otherwise they shouldn't continue a friendship too long because you know very often things break up and I would say consider all the factors before you decide to commit yourself to each other especially in India you need to consider the opinion 1:09:57 of parents whether you like it or not in Indian culture marriage is marriage into a family unlike western culture where you marry an individual full stop in Indian culture you're marrying into a family they're very close links with the 1:10:13 family you cannot avoid it and therefore you need to consider whether the girl's parents or the boy's parents will accept this are you sure of that if not hold pull the reinss back a bit hold on 1:10:32 and wait That's what I did. I mean, when parents didn't agree, I say, "Okay, we'll wait." And um and that's a place where you're tested whether God is first or the other person is first in your and I say I even said to the Lord, "Lord, if 1:10:47 you don't want to marry her, that's fine. Uh your will is more important to me than anything else. And you are more important to me. I'm not going to be disappointed. I mean, I'll feel sad, but disappointment is only if I if God gives 1:10:59 up on me, which will never happen." So Stan, if you like to say something on that, give some advice. Give your give us your opinion. >> Yeah. Um I agree that we must wait for our parents to um I mean God's blessing is there if we 1:11:15 honor our parents and even if uh an unbelieving parents I think if we have faith I don't know I feel that they can at least but I I am convinced that you we shouldn't run away and get married. Definitely that's wrong. We should wait 1:11:30 for both parents to be happy about it. >> Thank you. >> Well, our time is running out and brother, can you in closing, can you tell us what's the secret of your Christian life? >> Maybe before we go to that, there's one 1:11:48 area that I think is a problem for many young people. I know it's a mixed gathering, but maybe some advice. you know in the sexual area. some of the sexual problems that uh young people face particularly in this day and age, 1:12:03 the culture that's come into our country in terms of internet pornography, in terms of temptations to self-gratification, you know, both boys and girls. how to overcome some of these temptations and maybe some 1:12:23 uh in bondage to a habit. Can you help us from your own personal experience? Yeah, I would say that to be tempted is absolutely normal and um 1:12:41 be when you come to a certain age, early teens, a natural curiosity comes in all boys and girls concerning sex, sexual matters. They feel aroused sexually. 1:13:00 They want to know more about how the other sex's sexual organs function and it's curiosity and um there is where the devil plays up 1:13:15 on that and u people want to peep through keyholes and bathroom windows and all types of things because of this curiosity. I mean, you do a lot of uncchristian things out of curiosity first to see 1:13:33 what someone else's naked body looks like and pornography begins like that. Curiosity and um then it you begin to try and stimulate yourself. You know the only thing that can help in such situation is to think of Jesus and 1:13:53 say what would Jesus do? He was tempted exactly like us as a young man. He understands it all. Uh he doesn't condemn us. But I if you were to ask yourself, would 1:14:11 Jesus do this? Don't ask me for an answer. You will know the answer in your heart immediately. Concerning any habit. I don't have to make a list of habits because the Bible doesn't make a list of habits. The Bible says anyone 1 John 1:14:29 2:6, anyone who says he's a Christian must walk like G live like Jesus lived. And Jesus said follow me. Kept on saying follow me. And I know the times when I've been in tremendous pressure of temptation. And I've said, Lord Jesus, 1:14:43 when you were in Nazareth as a young man, you were tempted exactly like I am being tempted now. and uh I want to follow you. I haven't always succeeded. Many times I have failed. I have failed so many times that my failure has taught 1:14:58 me two things. My failures have taught me that I can never get victory on my own. It is impossible. I need the power of God's Holy Spirit. And God allowed me to fail so many times that I knew I couldn't get victory. Secondly, God taught me never 1:15:15 never to despise another human being who has failed. I tell you this is my witness. There are people who have come and confessed the most horrible things to me. I don't despise them because I have 1:15:33 learned one secret that my flesh is the same as everybody else's flesh. If I did not do it, maybe it was like the cobra inside the cage. That's all. That's the only difference between me and that person. That cobra was in the wild. I 1:15:47 was in the cage. But my flesh is just as bad as that person's. It is impossible for me to despise a human being today. Not only a believer, a human being. I can challenge the devil on that. You try and get me to despise a human being 1:16:01 because they sin so badly. Impossible. Not because I've done all those things that they've done, but because I know that my flesh is the same. So I I'm not I don't despise anyone. I believe that if we keep the standard, this is what 1:16:17 Jesus standard was. And I say, Lord, I want to be that. I want to be that. I would say to all of you young people, fight the battle. Fight the battle. Repent of your past. Ask the Lord to cleanse you from your past. And say, 1:16:28 Lord, I'm never going to give up till I become more and more walking as you walked on this earth. You'll find your standards become higher as time goes on. And you give up a lot of things that don't help you one bit. The movies that you watch, you'll stop 1:16:45 watching such movies. You'll become more pure in the type of books you read. It may take time. Don't worry if it takes time. But fight the battle. Fight the battle. Fight the battle. If you have a longing for purity, it'll go exceptionally well with you. 1:17:00 Even if you're going to fail for the next 10 years, fight the battle. Don't ever give up. That's my advice to you. Now failure in this area um h how can a young person keep from being condemned feeling unaccepted before God? 1:17:19 >> No, the thing is there's enough in scripture to show that Jesus loved even women who fell into adultery. Mary Magdalene, that sinful woman who was the most well-known prostitute in the city. Luke 7, Jesus said she loves much. So 1:17:34 there are many examples. was the thief on the cross. I don't know how many crimes he committed. All these things show that Jesus loves sin. Sin. He doesn't love sin. He hates sin, but he loves sinners. He loves us. And he hates 1:17:50 the sin because he knows it's destroying us. And that's why he hates it. And he knows that you can do nothing about your past mistakes. That's a wonderful thing. You see, men look at you and condemn you for your past mistakes. Jesus never does 1:18:04 that because he knows you can't do anything about it. >> He only says turn and feel sorry. Yeah. >> Many times the failures of the past, many are harassed by it. >> Yeah, I know. But that's because of two reasons. First of all, it's the devil 1:18:16 who keeps reminding you of your past. And I'll tell you something. If you have not really repented of your past, you know, there are some people who have done certain wrong things in the past and they justify it. You know, like 1:18:29 Adam, well, my wife gave it to me and this it was these circumstances. As long as you justify yourself, you deserve to be harassed. I'll tell you that you deserve to be harassed for the next 50 years or all your life and probably to 1:18:43 go to hell if you justify yourself. But the moment you stop justifying yourself and say, "Lord, it was nobody's fault. It was my fault 100%. The moment you begin to say that, you'll 1:19:01 be justified and you'll go home rejoicing cuz your sin is forgiven. And you say, "Lord, I don't want to do it again. I really don't want." I believe that many people are harassed because they are putting part of the blame on 1:19:15 somebody else who caused them to sin. For example, a sexual sin. Supposing somebody has fallen into any type, if it's not adultery, any type of sexual sin. And you say, "Well, but it was also his fault. You deserve to go to hell. 1:19:28 Whoever you are, you deserve to go to hell. And I believe God will be justified in sending you to hell. But if you say, "Lord, it was my fault 100%." >> And what about some sincere people who are being harassed, brother? 1:19:41 >> Sorry. >> Even some sincere people are being harassed. >> Yeah. Now, if a person that's the first step, stop blaming other people. Take the blame 100% yourself. And then next thing you need to do is believe that the blood of Jesus has cleansed you. That 1:19:56 when he says if you confess your sin, he's faithful and just to forgive us, cleanse us from all unrighteousness and your sins and iniquities I'll remember no more. It means no more. It's finished. I believe the biggest problem is getting 1:20:11 past that first hurdle of trying to put the blame on somebody else. If you got past that, the second step is believe that what Jesus has said, his blood has cleansed you completely. You're justified just as if you had never 1:20:23 committed that sin before again. Never ever committed that sin. But be careful in the area where you have fallen in the past is the area you have to be very careful about in future. If you were a drunkard, avoid anything. I can go near a drunk 1:20:42 drinking saloon because I was never a drunkard. I can walk past a drinking saloon. I can go inside a bar and not even be tempted because I never liked the taste of alcohol even when I was in the Navy. But another person who is a 1:20:56 drunker any amount of cigarettes in front of me don't tempt me because I never liked smoking. I never did it. But the areas where we have fallen, those are the areas we have to be very careful about. Extremely careful. Sure. Otherwise, 1:21:10 because that's the area where you're prone for the rest of your life. you're prone to be very careful and avoid such places. >> Can you suggest some practical steps you know for anyone who in bondage to a sexual habit some practical steps? 1:21:23 >> See the first thing is you must confess your sin holy to God. Repent and if that does not help you enough then go to some brother elder brother mature elder brother in whom you have total confidence that he will not sneak on 1:21:41 you. He will not look down on you. He will not go and tell your stories to other people and pray with that person. I know there are very few elder brothers like that in the world. So a lot of people I don't know what to suggest. I say go to God. 1:21:58 Then >> you say sister to an elder sister. >> Yes. >> But not many seem to get out of this discouragement you know because of past failures. >> Yeah. They must believe the word. They must believe that Jesus blood cleanses 1:22:12 us and justifies us. I want to speak more about that later about justification. But that's very important. >> Yeah. Well, our time is up. One last question. Can you tell how the young people can be preserved from messing up their lives? 1:22:29 I think for many of you who are in fellowship in a church, if you have god-fearing elders, please listen to me very carefully. If you have God-fearing elders and you get into conflict with those elders, 1:22:45 you can be pretty sure the fault is with you. Almost certainly you you haven't been to other denominations. You know, I have sometimes suggested to people actually suggested to people, you should go and 1:23:03 spend 6 months in another assembly. You'll come back to CFC with tremendous gratitude. Here you sit and criticize the elder brothers and the elder sisters. This is wrong. That is wrong. The other thing is wrong. The only cure 1:23:15 for you is go and try another hospital. Go and try another church and then you will appreciate. But very few people listen to me. If they did, it would have cured them 1:23:33 because their problem is ingratitude. and ingratitude. Romans chapter 1 it says when people are not thankful, they begin backsliding. So when you're not thankful for the wonderful fellowship God has given you in a church, 1:23:46 God-fearing elders God has given you, the rich word of God God has given you, you begin to take these things for granted and you're not actually inwardly thankful. Your backsliding has already begun. And that is why I have found that 1:24:02 people backslide quicker in CFC than in any of our other churches because they get more of God's word here. And backsliding takes takes place without even their knowing it. It's ingratitude which leads to a lack of respect for those who have walked with 1:24:20 the Lord for as many years as you have been born and lived. I'm amazed how young people who have hardly lived a few years on earth can treat lightly godly older brothers and sisters who have walked with God for much longer time 1:24:37 than they have lived on the earth. Such people it's very easy to backslide and there's not much you can do for them till they learn to be grateful and I believe that. But if you don't have such a fellowship in such a church then you 1:24:52 must do what I did. Say, "Lord, I want to lean on you." Seek every opportunity to read, listen to tapes, and seek fellowship whenever you can, like you go to a conference or seek fellowship wherever you can with godly people. But 1:25:05 if you're eager and sincere, God can preserve you. >> Rosak Sistani, I think uh it's been very very helpful. I'm sure everybody will agree all that we have heard from both of you. One last question. If >> one last question, 1:25:22 >> each person has the last question. Yeah. So you first and then sustaining if you were to give the last words supposing you're not going to see these young people again or you were leaving this earth the last words the last bit 1:25:38 of advice that you will give to young people. What would be suppos supposeding it was the last breath, the last words that you can ever speak to young people in your time on this earth. What would be those words? What would be that 1:25:55 advice that you would give us? I would say the thing that has helped me the most is to fix your eyes on Jesus. The NASP translation is better than looking under Jesus. uh Ro Hebrews 12:2 1:26:11 says, "Fix your eyes on Jesus and run this race." And I want to say to you that um you to fix your eyes on Jesus means to look at two things in that verse. It says one in the same verse. I'm speaking only from Hebrews 1:26:30 12:2. One, how he took up the cross and endured the cross and how he's at the right hand of the throne of God. two things that means one I on earth I fix my eyes on how he suffered how he endured and um 1:26:47 uh I say Lord I want to go that way I remember as a young man I prayed to God and said Lord every experience that you went through on earth if you'll give me the honor and the privilege of going through that experience I will count it 1:27:01 a tremendous honor and the Lord said to me I've gone here before you. This is an answer to your prayer. And I said, "Thank you, Lord. You've given me this honor to experience what you've experienced on earth. Boy, this is 1:27:15 fantastic. Everything changes its color when you see fix your eyes on Jesus." And the second thing is to see him at the right hand of the throne of God. He's got absolute authority over all the people who come in into your life into 1:27:32 your circle. Everybody who's troubling you or influences you, your parents don't understand you, doesn't matter. There's somebody at the right hand of the throne of God who can control all those people, change their opinions 1:27:45 about you, change your circumstances. If you can have if you can fix your eyes on just Hebrews 12:2, looking at Jesus in his earthly life and seeing him today having all authority in heaven and earth, I believe you're okay for the 1:27:59 rest of your life. >> Wonderful. Sister Annie, >> I 100% agree with what my husband has just said, but I also want to add like from a woman's uh side uh two good things which are very valuable to us. One is to be honest about our condition 1:28:18 and what we hear like we hear some things in the church or uh some things which are may not be true in our life yet maybe some fault and at that time be honest and say yes Lord that is true I am that is my condition don't get upset 1:28:35 but accept it and be honest about it and uh bring it to the lord and say lord please help me to change that habit or that uh failure which I have that weakness which I'm seeing or that besetting sin whatever it is that honesty is one thing I can uh add to 1:28:54 what my husband has said and the second thing is to have a spirit of submission which is very valuable for a girl uh because a submission in the home to our parents first of all in the church to the elders sometimes we think like I've 1:29:10 noticed that some uh sisters who were here and uh whatever they heard in the church they used to always say I don't agree with what we hear because in this day and age we can't just uh you know they had their own comments about it and 1:29:25 critical attitude about what they heard and I found that those sisters either have left the church or it hasn't gone well with them so a spirit of submission is really a valuable thing uh which we should long for and uh keep with us all 1:29:41 all our lives >> thank you very very That's Yeah. May we praise the Lord. We praise 1:30:14 the Lord that we not only have Jesus who's gone before us, we have examples on this earth. We have role models to follow. We praise the Lord for brother Zach and sister. Let's give thanks to God. You can pray. Yeah. Father in heaven, we want to thank 1:30:30 you Lord for this afternoon. Thank you for this good time we had together Lord. Thank you for the examples you've given us, Lord. Thank you for those who gone ahead of us, Lord. We pray that you'll help every one of the young people here, 1:30:41 Lord. They'll come to a wonderful glorious life to you, Lord. They can bring honor and praise to you, Lord. We pray you'll bless them and encourage them, Lord. Keep them from all the snares of the devil, Lord. We pray that 1:30:53 you'll give them boldness and courage and hope and faith, Lord, and fill them with the Holy Spirit, Lord. Lead them into all your fullness, Lord Jesus. Thank you also, Lord, for the Zack Stanley, Lord, and for their example and 1:31:04 for the sacrifice and for all that they done for us, Lord. We want to praise you and give you thanks for this afternoon. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. >> Let's start without any uh delay. I was the first one going to ask the first question. Just raise 1:31:20 your hand. I think what with a lot of young people today, it's not that they don't respect the elders and they don't have the confidence in the elders to share those things with them, but and they they really respect them, but a lot 1:31:35 of times they feel there's a uh cultural gap, a generational gap of like 30, 40 years and things are different back in the 60s than it is now. and um they're not sure if the elders can relate to that and so they want to have someone else to go to and 1:31:53 then the people they want to go to are not as mature. How do you uh resolve an issue like that and who would you go to in such a situation and is it wise to just uh try and resolve it on your own? >> Yeah, the question is that um 1:32:11 uh since there's so much difference in age between many elders and young people sometimes 40 years and also between parents and their children sometimes 1:32:27 and u they can be a complete difference in understanding you know the culture has changed in India also that um it was not like people got married 40 years ago that people get married today even in India 1:32:45 So sometimes if an elder is a bit part of the old school and feels that anything new is unscriptural or wrong, what do you do? Well, can you go to that person? Because the person will never understand because he won't um be willing to think 1:33:03 like today's young people think. See um I've had to face this problem in relation to music. I I remember when I was a young person and I listened to even secular songs, they were usually the slow type where 1:33:23 you could follow the words whereas today I can't follow the words of any of these songs that there's something in it. I mean there's some noise there but I find a lot of young people can follow the words. I I just can't 1:33:37 >> they enjoy it. >> They enjoy it also. So I've just felt this is another generation and I can't expect them to be interested in the things I was interested in 40 years ago. Um if it is not sinful. Now I believe that rock music is there's a demonic 1:33:57 element in rocks, drugs and demons go together. So I feel that there's I mean there's the lines here but if it doesn't go as far as that just because something is fast and it doesn't um is not what I'm used to does not mean it's wrong. Uh 1:34:13 I believe that in Christian singing we must understand words. So the same thing applies here also that cultures have changed and um I personally believe that it's very difficult for traditional Indian parents to change their way of 1:34:29 thinking and it's true that some elders also are do not change with the times they're not flexible it's a fact and I agree that it becomes difficult for a young person if he's going to deal with a very inflexible 1:34:45 elder Brother, I hope our elders will be more flexible. The only thing to avoid is sin and even what is worldly. You know, I know in some of our churches in other places, there was a time when they felt the salvaries churidar is all 1:35:03 worldly and now of course their own daughters are wearing it. So things have changed. I never had a problem with it. I always felt Salvar Kamse was more modest than the big midrifts that Indian women exhibit with a sarian blouse. Um 1:35:21 but there are many things like that. You know some people feel that if you wear a pant a girl wears a pant that's wrong. I don't have a problem with it personally. To me there's only one rule in scripture. Be modest and be simple. 1:35:34 That's about all there is that I'm bothered about. And so in the same thing in this matter of getting boy girl relationships see we have to respect the culture we are in. And that means uh to me the principle is this Jesus 1:35:52 came to earth hebrews 2:17 he was made in all things like his brothers. So that means he dressed like the Jewish people around him dressed. Jesus is our example. Fixing our eyes on Jesus is the secret. So how did he do it? He lived 1:36:10 like the Jewish people. He ate like the Jewish people. He did everything like all the people around him. If the others had a beard, he had a beard. If the others had long hair, he had long hair. If they had short hair, he had short 1:36:21 hair. So it's all he was like the people. And so as and he dressed like them. So I believe without being sinful, without doing anything sinful in the culture. So I believe that the best example is that that in the society and 1:36:37 culture you're living in, if you're living in a western country, you do it another way. If you're living in Bangalore, you do it another way than you do it do in some village in some small village in India. You can't u you 1:36:49 know just like the missionaries who came from America. One of the big mistakes that a lot of missionaries particularly in Nagaland and all that they've made was they brought along with the gospel their American culture and changed those 1:37:00 the way they dress and all that which was wrong. The best missionaries are those who became like the local culture and became one with the society around them without sinning. And so I believe that the a spiritually minded person 1:37:17 will follow Jesus and adapt to the culture in which they are living whether it's a city or a village or a western country or an eastern country and there seek to be a witness for Christ without doing anything that will spoil their 1:37:31 testimony and um adapting and if a culture changes for example Bangalore is very different today than it was say 40 years ago and or even 28 years ago when CF FC started. So we have tried in CFC I don't know whether we have fully 1:37:47 succeeded to adapt to this changing culture around us in this city because we believe that um our younger generation must be a witness in that culture. And if there were things that were considered wrong, not sinful but wrong 1:38:04 by society, we'd avoid it 25 years ago. Today we don't avoid it because society doesn't think it's wrong. There's nothing. There was no sin then and there was no sin now. But uh where people don't understand it then I would 1:38:19 say there is a limitation and you don't have to go to an elder brother but maybe go to an older person who is willing to listen to you a married person who is who's got a little maturity and who can advise you. And um we hope that among us 1:38:35 elders here anyway that we want to be more flexible and adaptable. The Holy Spirit is always flexible, not rigid. You know, like we were considering in the picnic that the place in the Bible where it says somebody was stiff was 1:38:50 that demonpossessed boy, he became stiff. And demon possession always makes a person stiff. But the Holy Spirit makes us very sensitive and flexible to the culture we are in. So I would say that if you can't find an if you find an 1:39:03 elder or a parent who is rigid um well respect them and um but consider whether their objections are to prevent you from becoming sinful and worldly or uh that there may be a point in what they say. Don't just reject it out of hand saying 1:39:20 oh you're oldfashioned. uh consider the point and if you still feel that's because of prejudice then seek the counsel of other godly people whom you know who may be a little more flexible or a little more suited to the culture 1:39:34 you're in. Okay. Yeah. My question is not really relevant to what we were just now talking about, but I was thinking in terms of what you had said earlier about first love and 1:39:54 loving the Lord and um I think it's probably true of a lot of us who there's some point in our time in our life where the Lord met with us and we really loved him passionately and he was the first desire of our hearts and we've drifted 1:40:06 from that and we know the word of God says repent and return to your first love but sometimes we we don't know what that means. What are the steps we have to take? Can you give us some practical thoughts on this and what exactly does 1:40:18 that mean to repent at that point? >> Well, you know um I find ultimately you have to trust the Lord to keep you because the Bible says he's able to keep you from falling. 1:40:36 In fact, you know nowadays um when people go to these all these meetings where people lay hands on them and make them fall, I say I'll give you a verse. He's able to keep you from falling and he has kept me from falling in more 1:40:50 than ways than one. But apart from that ultimately don't trust in yourself. Say Lord only you can keep me from falling away from my first love. Please preserve me and I have found in my life. We have to do our part but also trust the Lord. 1:41:07 My part for myself has been to never forget the sins I have committed in my life which only God and I know. All of us, every single one sitting here. There are sins in your life. Even if 1:41:25 you're you're a young person that your parents don't know, your husband doesn't know, your wife doesn't know. You don't have to confess to any of them. They are forgiven. They are blotted out. God does not remember them anymore. They need not 1:41:40 condemn you one bit because he doesn't remember them. But you must remember them not for condemnation but to remember the pit from which God pulled you out. That will make you immensely grateful to God and it will 1:41:59 never make you despise another person. And the more you realize and constantly remember how much you have been forgiven, if it brings condemnation, stop thinking about it. No, immediately stop. Turn to some other subject. But if 1:42:15 you can, if you know surely God has forgiven you, it's gone. Then you can I can think about it because I know God's forgiven me. And I think about it only for one reason. I say, Lord, how much you have forgiven me. How much you have hidden from the eyes 1:42:29 of others. I want to hide the sins of other people. I don't want to reveal them. I don't want to be a gossip. You know, people have told me so many things and nobody, not even my wife, not even Ian or Newton ever hear from me what 1:42:43 somebody has told me. It lives and dies with me because God has hidden my sins. I hide the sins of others. If I know something about somebody else, I'll never say it. If God himself expose it, that's his business. But I will never 1:42:55 reveal it to anyone. That's one help. And secondly, it reminds me of how much I've been forgiven, which makes me love the Lord more. And the other thing as I said earlier also is to meditate much on how Jesus loves us. The immense love of God 1:43:12 and how we hurt him every time we do something violating his law. So these are some of the things that help us to preserve us in our first love. And I find also that reading I don't read many books. I only read something that really 1:43:31 challenges my heart. I'm not interested in information. I'm interested in something that challenges my heart. Um I was just reading last week something by Toer that really challenged my heart and um every now and then but it's God who 1:43:46 brings that across my path at a time when I need it. And the other thing is even a small sin, you really repent seriously and ask God to forgive you. Sometimes if I've just spoken a little sharply to somebody at a 1:44:06 petrol filling station or a shop or a vegetable man or a porter or a auto rickshaw driver, I have tremendous remorse over it. Um that means uh Lord that was not good. It's a I don't want to ever speak like 1:44:22 that to another human being. And that God sees there a desire to be absolutely like Jesus. A remorse. Nobody needs to see it. It's just between you and God. And these are the things that preserve us in our passionate love for Jesus 1:44:39 Christ. Okay. We have a we have a question here. Um it says you know being Christians that you know being committed Christians after marriage sometimes we feel it 1:44:58 difficult to understand each other. So maybe we can ask both brother Brazak and Satani to give the sustani first. It's almost impossible for one person to 1:45:21 understand another completely. But um I think we should try to uh I mean from a wife's point of view u we can say express our opinion and then leave it. Uh maybe >> thank you. husband eats too fast 1:45:41 >> and then uh if it's not an important thing I feel that uh most of the things which uh we think our husbands need to understand uh I found that they're not all that important that we have to convince them and convince them cuz 1:45:55 after some time I think those not all that important to after all not a matter of life and death so I find that there are less and less things which I need to >> straighten me out which works me up. 1:46:12 >> Yeah. You know, the one of the best definitions of marriage I've heard is two imperfect people imperfectly related. That's the best definition of marriage. Two imperfect people imperfectly joined 1:46:30 and imperfectly related. But in that mutual imperfection we learn to bear with one another you know it's not only in marriage even in the church when we are conceited and proud 1:46:47 we think oh I have to bear so much with my wife or my husband or with that brother and we don't realize that the other person has that proves that the other person has had to bear with me too. And that's been a tremendous help to me to 1:47:05 know particularly in the church when I think of some person's behavior working me up because I'm not like that. I say well my behavior must be working that person up too also. I don't realize it. I'm sure that person doesn't realize 1:47:19 it. So there are many things which we do in married life which we don't realize that each has to bear with one another and in that process God sanctifies both of us. There's a lovely verse in proverbs which says iron sharpens iron. 1:47:38 So you know you can only sharpen iron with iron. So that's what happens in mutual relationship you bear with one another. We as young people, we hear a lot a lot of messages about coping with failure and coping with criticism. But on the 1:47:53 other side, how do we cope with success and people praising us? It's easy to say, "Okay, don't let it go to your head." But eventually it'll happen to any of us. How how do we cope with it? >> I think that's important also because 1:48:07 there are a few, you know, even in Corinth, Paul said, "Not many of you are wise and intelligent." There are a few in every church. And that's something we have to cope with. Particularly I would say that a person who is doing 1:48:23 exceptionally well in any area whether in school or in athletics or in college or in a profession succeeding in a business or anything. The mark of godliness in him would be first of all personally to recognize that it's not because he's 1:48:40 spiritual that he's successful in the world. Because I mean we have enough examples in the world of very intelligent people. The most intelligent people in the world are not Christians. The most successful businessmen and 1:48:53 scientists are not Christians. Some of them are atheists. So if we recognize that this type of earthly success whether in school or college or business or science or anything is not a mark of spirituality. It's something God has 1:49:07 given to some people different. And the Christian who is who is very clever and intelligent has an opportunity to show that yeah God has got some people who are clever and intelligent also who do very well in their profession and who 1:49:22 are still ordinary Christians. I mean we feel that in CFC nobody should know for example who is what profession or who's coming first in the class or who's coming last in the class. I mean that you shouldn't be able to see by their behavior that there's 1:49:39 any difference. Nobody should be able to find out who's earning so much and who's earning less. Then you know there's a then you know that's the body of Christ where each member values the other. And the other is I believe that if you are 1:49:52 very successful and intelligent you should you have to be very careful that you never make another person feel small by anything you say or you don't dominate a conversation for example supposing by God's grace you 1:50:10 never have committed adultery in your whole life that's a wonderful thing but uh I would never boast about that because you you know you can make somebody else who happened to fall into that feel very small. It's the same as 1:50:25 you know trying to boast about your intelligence. I mean God has preserved you. Okay fine leave it before God be the principle of Jesus. He was made like his brothers. He he never made other to me the most wonderful thing 1:50:38 about Jesus is he never made anybody feel small in his presence. Whether they were sinners or stupid or dumb. Even if the disciples ask some stupid question, he would answer it. And never make another person if you're very capable, 1:50:53 never make another you. It'll make an effort, you know, because there's a tendency to show off your knowledge to dominate a conversation to know the answers and to give it. I know I' I've had to battle this myself. And sometimes 1:51:07 if you're in a midst of a group of people where others are perhaps not so intelligent, don't give them the impression that you know the answer. Sometimes you just need to keep quiet and even if somebody has you know some 1:51:19 some things people talk about it's not so important whether everybody gets your opinion. So we have to be very careful and the other thing is try your best not to uh you know keep on talking about your abilities you and I'll tell you something if you 1:51:39 really are serious you young people go to somebody who is a good friend of yours if you're a sister go to another sister you go to a brother go to some other brother in whom you have confidence young brother your age with 1:51:51 you know because uh the elders may not know what you're talk about when you're midst of young people and ask them do you find uh something in me that you need to tell me about you find there's some habit in me that I'm not aware of 1:52:07 perhaps you can help me and somebody may tell you you talk too much about yourself oh I tell you honestly sometimes we don't realize it you know I've had to be corrected at times when I interrupt people in their conversation 1:52:21 it is a habit I just say Lord I I want to get over that. We've got unconscious habits which um we have acquired. You know, I ride a scooter and I keep telling myself, you got to go to slow. You got to slow down. You're you're not young now. And there 1:52:38 are certain habits which are not necessarily evil but which are not good. So much more in mutual relationships. Never make another person feel small and say go before God frequently and say Lord this is nothing spiritual about this 1:52:55 it's just you've made me I want to use it for your glory if you use it well and good but I I just want to live like an ordinary brother among others okay so this question is actually a little bit fun um I this we're supposed to be 1:53:11 journalists here so I'm going to play the role of a journalist from Russia Yeah. Um, and I've read your books. I write for the Moscow Times and I've read your books and Mrs. Kunan, I've read a book of yours, The Lady's Viewpoint, it 1:53:26 also translates nicely into Russia. Uh, the question I have is this. The people in Russia want to know what do you do for fun? Um, do you when that is when you're not um reading the Bible and praying and eating and sleeping, do you 1:53:42 do other things or would you recommend other things uh that are fun? uh what is your recommendation of uh what people should be listening to music um and you know watching programs on TV practical tips for how people might might handle 1:53:56 times outside of the time when they are in the meetings in the church I didn't do the Russian accent well but you okay uh well I shall answer that question as the Mr. Since you do not understand English so 1:54:20 well, I shall explain. [Music] We're having fun. That is one way, my friend, of having fun that we enjoy ourselves. We are not to be serious people who cannot joke or 1:54:39 laugh or do such things. God has given us a sense of humor and God made the monkey and see how he made fun and we can have a lot of fun as Christians. I believe that. Uh so 1:54:55 I believe we should enjoy ourselves. Life is like that to be serious and longfaced does not draw anybody to Christ. So uh in a practical way I would say 1:55:18 that um whatever appeals to you if you with music you enjoy music by all means enjoy music. Anything that is not sinful we can always enjoy very much because God created everything in this 1:55:37 world. you maybe uh you go out together with your friends and have some fun together with them and joke and laugh. I have a good collection of jokes which I uh share with people on appropriate occasions where um I don't make fun of 1:55:54 other people. Maybe I make fun of myself or something else but it's good to be funny because then only people can be free with you and it is very important that uh people are free with you in all these things and um sometimes you know I don't want to 1:56:13 horrify you by some things that we do in our country but but something which is clean and funny and makes us laugh. I believe it is 1:56:28 laughter is good medicine for all one thing Mr. Don't ask from the Russian sister. 1:56:50 [Music] >> One more thing before we ask uh uh sister Annie. You said friends. Now we can mix with boyfriends and girlfriends also. That depends on the culture of your country. My friend, you have to do it according to your 1:57:11 culture. And I do not make rules for other countries. But uh you have to do it. They say when in Russia do like the Russians and when in Rome do like the Romans. So that is what I believe that you know in certain countries it is perfectly all right for 1:57:27 a boy and a girl to go together and that is okay for me. But if it in your culture that creates a problem for your Christian testimony then you must be very careful in that area. But I believe in good clean fun. I believe in humor is 1:57:42 a gift of God and we must enjoy ourselves and um I believe particularly older people like myself the only way if you're an older person and you want to really get down to the level of younger people you must learn to have fun with 1:57:58 them and only they'll be free to ask you many things and believe that you are at their level and I always seek to be at the level of little people if I speak to children I speak just like uh I speak to them just like children. 1:58:17 >> I I have a Indian wife by the way. >> She has not picked up my accent as yet. >> We we have a we have a role for you in a 1:58:39 in a in a film. So there's a demonstration of a cross-cultural marriage already. So there's freedom if you want to take that freedom. But um down to earth matters. I think for young people, I 1:58:58 found when my children were growing up, it was a good thing for them to play games because I found that when they came back in the evening, the thing that they would look forward to the most was playing after they came back from 1:59:11 school. So playing games whatever games they like indoor games outdoor games that's very good and that brings a lot of um uh builds up friendship and bonding between the family members and friends and if you like music learning 1:59:29 to play some musical instrument and joining with people who enjoy music and uh like we did this afternoon those are two of the things which I can think When I talk to girls and when I see movies, you don't preach against me in 1:59:45 the meeting. >> Dear brother, do not try to imitate my accent because when you try to imitate my accent, you I do not understand what you are saying. Please be yourself like I am myself. >> I will speak in my language now. 2:00:10 When I do what I like, do you preach against me in the meetings? >> Okay, we'll hand the mic over to the other brother. Right. No. Okay. When you speak in the meetings, do you when some do you speak when you do what you like? Do do I 2:00:30 speak? >> I'm sorry, I didn't clarify that. But supposing as a young brother I talk to the girls or I watch movies but you preach against that in the meetings. Uh if I you see if you are a shepherd you have a responsibility 2:00:47 to speak against anything that is wrong in a church even if the clearest example is in Corinthians where the family of K wrote to Paul saying these things are going on in the church in Corinth. Paul said, "Oh, is that so?" And he wrote the 2:01:03 whole letter of Corinthians about how to behave with women, about marriage, about speaking in tongues, about the man who was living in sin. He answered all those questions. So, it's like, you know, think of an elder brother like a father. 2:01:17 If you know that one of your children is doing something wrong, would you speak to him about it? or if you find there's a general danger that all your children are facing when you sit around the dining table, would you talk to them 2:01:30 about it or not? Of course, you will. And so I have no hesitation. For example, if I find I hear that somebody in the church is um doing something wrong and I feel that is a general danger for everybody, I would have no hesitation in 2:01:47 speaking about it openly. And uh I I would say I would even introduce my student but I've heard that somebody is doing this and that's not a good habit and I felt it is good to talk to everybody about this subject. You know we shouldn't get this crazy this 2:02:03 idea that I only hear from heaven and I speak. God can speak to me through my brothers. God spoke to Paul through the family of K. You read in 1 Corinthians 1:11 who wrote a letter to him saying these things are wrong in the church in 2:02:16 Corinth. God told Paul speak about it. He didn't hear from heaven. He know the answer was from heaven. But the pointing out of something wrong in the church came through Chloe. So I have no problem if somebody tells me that in some 2:02:29 particular church this thing is going wrong and I go there for meetings. I say okay I'm going to deal with that subject. You know there are some people who say don't tell me about anything that's going wrong here. I will listen 2:02:40 to God. Paul did not tell Kloe that. Paul was not super spiritual. He was down to earth. He respected Kloe and he knew that God would speak through Clo. So if I feel that you're uh I hear that some of you are watching movies. 2:02:56 I would not like to expose you by name but I will speak about it generally because if it doesn't apply to you don't worry but I would have no hesitation to speak about it because it is helpful to people to warn people about lot of 2:03:10 movies will are like cobras they will sting you and destroy you. They put images into your mind that remain there forever. So you got to be careful. Like I said, you know, if you're watching something clean and good, sometimes you 2:03:22 don't know whether it's clean and good. And then if you had one or two sad experiences like that, then you be careful about those type of movies. So you, you know, I believe that entertainment is good. We need relaxation. We go for picnics like we 2:03:37 play games. And I say we live in a world with such tremendous tension that for some people the only release they get from that tension is say watching sport on television or some type of relaxation I have nothing against it. Uh I lived in 2:03:53 another age when I was a young man 50 years ago to say that I did not watch television when I was young. It doesn't I mean that's the way I was. The the age was different. We're in a different age today. If you find it relaxes, the only 2:04:05 thing I say is be careful of sin. Be careful of anything that pollutes your mind. Please be careful because I tell you it will destroy your usefulness to God. So if you're very eager to please God, I'm not at one extreme where I say 2:04:20 we don't want any entertainment. There's some people who believe that. I say fine, I respect that conviction. I really respect those who differ with me. I'm just expressing my conviction and I'm not asking anybody to follow me. I'm 2:04:32 just saying I believe that in a world of tension today we need relaxation. Some people find their relaxation by you know just going to prayer and some people don't find it that way. So you must find it your way and um judge 2:04:45 >> not judge other people give freedom. Anybody from the sisters I'm not from Russia. I'm from Singapore. 2:05:07 So, I have a Singapore accent. Um, I understand you have boys only. Only sons. >> I think so. >> I've heard it's four lovely sons. Um, it's a bit unfortunate you don't have any daughters. I mean, I'm sure it's not unfortunate. It's probably God's will. 2:05:23 But, uh, just suppose you had a daughter. What would be some of the things you would um allow her to do or don't allow her to do? What would be some restrictions of her that you would have just your opinion? >> You want to answer that? 2:05:37 >> I question you. >> Okay. I have often thought about that. You know as my sons have grown up in CFC from a young age I know and they also knew 2:05:54 that they were very carefully observed by other people. I know one brother who came uh who many years later after my children had left home told me do you know brother Zach every time I came for a conference I was observing your 2:06:08 children how and I think they were aware of it too how they dress what shoes they wear I think any elder brother faces that his children any okay any elder brother faces that with his children his children of elder brothers face that's part of the price 2:06:27 they pay for eldership that other people some are critical some expect the children to live up to certain standards don't allow them to grow up normally in fact one person told my wife your children will never be able to grow up have a normal development in 2:06:44 India they allow to go somewhere else because they everywhere they go they say oh you're Zachman's sons and they expect them to behave in a certain way so if I had a daughter or daughters I think they would have faced extreme difficulty 2:07:00 because you know dress is a much more important thing for women even the Bible speaks about it than for men and a lot of things that today's teenagers would accept as normal and which is accepted as normal in churches my daughter would 2:07:17 have been a teenager 20 years ago or 18 years ago when I would have accepted it but a lot of people wouldn't have accepted it and I she would have had a tremendous struggle. But I don't know. I have a lot of people think I'm a 2:07:33 very strict person. I'm strict when it comes comes to sin. But I'm not strict when it comes to anything that has no connection with sin. I don't believe worldliness is in a person's dress unless it's immodest. I don't believe worldliness is in a 2:07:47 particular way you fix your hair or it's a spirit in your mind. That's what determines um worldliness. And uh I think I would have told my daughter, don't worry about what people think about you, but seek to please Jesus. 2:08:04 Always dress in a way. Supposing you were going for a walk with Jesus into town. How would you dress if Jesus was you're fixed an appointment with Jesus and you're going to walk with him through going shopping with Jesus one day? 2:08:17 you're going to dress in a way appropriate to walk with him or you're going for a visit somewhere or you're going to the meeting or you're going for a wedding, you're going for the wedding along with Jesus. I think it will make a 2:08:29 difference in the way you dress or the things you talk about. You think if Jesus is there? So that's the advice I would give to that person and say don't be too bothered about what other people think about you because you know there'll always be some people 2:08:43 to criticize you. You know the story of the man and his son who wanted to sell their donkey in the market. Well, if some of you don't know, I'll tell you. They were took the donkey to the market and um they were walking by the side of 2:08:57 the donkey and some people said, "What stupid people they are. They're taking a donkey to the market. At least one of them can ride on the donkey." So the man said, "Hey, that's a good idea." So he sat on the donkey. Then some people 2:09:07 said, "Hey, look at this old man making his poor boy walk." Uh and he himself is sitting like a maraj on the donkey. So he got off and his son sat on the donkey. Then some people said, "Look at this smart young fellow making his poor 2:09:19 father walk like that and he's sitting on the donkey like a man." So they both sat on the donkey. Then some people said, "Look at these fellows. They're making the poor donkey suffer so much with both of them sitting on it. So they 2:09:28 carried the donkey on their head and as they were crossing a bridge, the donkey kicked and fell into the river and that was the end. They couldn't sell their donkey. So that's what happens when you listen to um what this person 2:09:41 says and what that person says and the other person says you'll finally carry the donkey on your head and lose it. So I would say I'm not saying don't bother at all. I think you should be concerned about what your parents say. But 2:09:52 basically think of Jesus. Fix your eyes on Jesus and say Lord Jesus if I were coming to meet you how would I dress? Somebody asked me if I'm brother what should I wear for my wedding? I say just think you're going to meet Jesus. How 2:10:06 would you dress if you're going to meet him? I make no rules. Go to meet Jesus and dress like that. Dress is an important thing. And be careful. I would also tell my daughter, be careful about the type of friends you have. Even among 2:10:19 Christians, there can be people with who are always follow following the latest fashions and who are always talking about various things and they may be Christians and okay, don't judge them. them. I would tell my daughter, don't 2:10:31 judge any of those young sisters in the church because that way you'll defile yourself also, but don't follow them. If you don't feel that way, don't for the sake of being accepted into their company, don't dress like them and talk 2:10:44 like them and imitate their accent or anything. No, no, no, no. Be yourself. God wants you to be yourself. That's what I would tell her. And rejoice in the fact that God has accepted you as as as yourself. If you're not as pretty as 2:10:57 somebody else or you're not as fair as somebody else, you're not clever as somebody else, just rejoice that Jesus has accepted you. Those are some of the things I would tell a daughter of mine. Just standing. daughters. I I don't have daughters but 2:11:16 uh whether sons or daughters I think a mother can uh build up fellowship with the daughter because the daughter is more at home and being a friend to the daughter uh as a mother I can teach her all the values like if I make lot of 2:11:33 rules don't comb your hair like this and don't dress like that and put your sari like this and cover like this and I keep on giving her a lot of instruction ction, she'll get fed up of me. But if I give her general rules like you must be 2:11:47 modest, you must see seek to please Jesus above everybody else and don't seek to be popular among your friends and just give her some general principles that will guide her throughout her life and prepare her for whatever she has to face. Because 2:12:03 suppose I uh God takes me away from this earth, my daughter must be able to survive and be a godly woman. She should grow up to be a godly woman. So I should u build those um give her those principles and leave her in the hands of God, the Holy Spirit 2:12:20 to teach her and bring her up in a godly way. >> Anyone else? Any other question? How can we get over how can we get over 2:12:38 the fear of uh praying in a meeting or sharing maybe you know Wednesday meeting or something that's a fear that many young people have maybe we have read something through the week and we want to share it but we are scared you know 2:12:50 many things uh or maybe just open open our mouth and pray to God how can we get over that fear >> actually can I ask one thing because I think I spent most of my 20s um defeated with different sins. So I felt that that gave me no right to get up on speed 2:13:09 because I took the verse if you love me keep my commandments. I didn't feel I was keeping all those commandments because one or two sins that I was keeping on the habitual sin. So now as I've gotten more victory I've gotten more boldness. But now that I've 2:13:20 got more bonus I realized that my victory came from this righteousness anyway. So I feel like I could have had that bonus in in all my 20s even though I was still struggling even though I was falling. So how do I come with that 2:13:33 boldness to speak and to share if not a victory but of God's faithfulness to keep me from sitting home or very good questions and I believe that we should never be hesitant to testify we so long as you're not pretending you 2:13:48 know so long as you don't get up and say I have victory over all sins I mean that's a lie see it's not you don't have to get victory over sin before you testify you don't have to get victory over sin before you pray the Apostle 2:14:00 Peter uh got up on the day of Pentecost as a 30-year-old or 33 year old young man filled with the Holy Spirit and he spoke boldly. He made a lot of mistakes thereafter. Paul made a lot of mistakes thereafter and these things are written 2:14:14 for our instruction that I believe that even in the coming year 2004 I may do some stupid things but I'm not going to stop testifying according to the light I have but I'll never pretend. Uh I mean there was a time when I used to pretend 2:14:28 about 30 years ago and I was a backslider then. But I don't pretend. I mean, one of the decisions I took you many years ago is I I won't pretend. But that doesn't mean I can testify only when I've got victory. You know, when 2:14:40 you get up to pray or testify, the devil say, "Hey, you're the fellow who got lost your temper there or you did something wrong there." You say, "Yeah, that's right. I'm the same fellow, but I repented and I've asked God to forgive 2:14:53 me and I'm here getting up um to pray because I believe that Jesus has forgiven me. I agree with what Sep says that there are a lot of people who are hesitant to get up because they say hey I'm I don't have victory yet and then 2:15:08 it's we are clothed in his righteousness and that's why we stand and even when we think we've got such a lot of victory it's only still 10% of our life if only we saw the other 90% we would really say Lord I want to stand in your 2:15:22 righteousness sometimes God has shown me a little bit of that other 90% in my life and I have said God forgive me for ever thinking that I can ever stand uh with anything other than the righteousness of Christ. And you know I 2:15:36 believe that sometimes God gives you a little glimpse if you're honest about that other 90% in your life which other people don't see which you yourself have not seen and then you realize it's only the righteousness of Christ. That means 2:15:47 it was the righteousness of Christ from the day you were born again. You know I believe that is our fault also in the leadership that we have not spoken sufficiently of he is all my righteousness I stand complete in him 2:16:00 that that's our fault I acknowledge my fault there that I have not preached it enough and uh partly because I thought oh you know I had this idea but I saw so much worldliness in Christianity and I said this is the result of these fellows 2:16:14 saying I'm righteousness in Christ therefore I threw away the baby with the bathwater I threw away something good which is in scripture and I realize and we're coming back you know we've steered the car so much to the right that we've 2:16:27 gone way off the road or we want to come back to the left come back to the center of the road and be accepted in Christ and that's the thing that gives us boldness I've if you have not confessed your sin if you have not repented then 2:16:38 of course you shouldn't pray but how long does it take to confess or repent supposing you're in a breaking of bread meeting you're terribly convicted about what you did wrong you know you can still break bread because how long does 2:16:47 it take to repent and You say, "But I haven't set it right." Zakius did not set everything right. It probably took him 10 years to pay back all the four times. But the Lord said, "Salvation has already come. Salvation came as soon as he took that decision. 2:17:01 Not after 10 years when he had paid everything back." So once you have taken a decision, Lord, I don't want to sin do that again. You may do it tomorrow. So what? You don't want to do it. You know when people come to me for baptism, I 2:17:13 ask them one question. Do you want to sin again even once? He said, "Now listen, I'm not asking you will you sin again. I'm asking do you want to sin again even once?" And I say, "The answer is no. You're ready to be baptized." 2:17:29 Because I'm not saying even I can't say today I will never sin again. But boy, long long ago I could say I don't want to sin again even once. I'm sure many of you sitting here perhaps almost most of you say that. And I believe don't let 2:17:45 the devil rob you of your confidence. And the other thing is you have to the only way to get over fear is by actually facing it. You know, I would never have discovered how much of honor seeking there was in my praying until I actually 2:17:59 prayed. I would pray and I say, "Boy, that was 10% of that prayer was for God. 90% was for man." I say, "Okay, Lord, it's going to be 89% tomorrow, next week it'll be 89%. I I I work my way, you know, like climbing a 2:18:19 mountain. I tell you, this battle seeking honor will be with us till the end of our life. And um you know, I mean, today if you see me a little more free, it's because I've been praying and speaking in public for more than 40 2:18:33 years. But I remember the first time uh okay, I'll tell you, I'll confess some of my sins now. You know when I was in a brethren assembly way back 40 43 years ago and they had the in the brethren assembly you get up and you can get a opportunity 2:18:50 to share before the breaking of bread for just 3 4 minutes and I would think up something really emotionally stirring and I would get up and then I would sit down and say boy what a I put in my thumb and pulled out a plum and said 2:19:07 what a good boy am I. I really felt like that and often if somebody came to me after the meeting and said, "Oh, brother Zach, that was so good what I shared." Yeah. I would act humble and say, "Yeah, we give the glory to God for that. 2:19:22 You know, you say the right words." But boy, I was very conscious that. But I battled it and I battled it and I battled it. I didn't stop. I discovered more of myself. I prayed and I discovered myself. I spoke and I discovered myself and I cleansed myself. 2:19:40 For example, people serve in the conference. Do you know what a lot you discover about yourself? All you brothers and sisters who served in the conference, haven't you discovered a lot of your own flesh when you organize some 2:19:52 local church function? Yes or no? >> Sure. At least five people discovered something in them. Have you discovered something or not? >> And that is God's reward to you for your service. What is the reward? He gave you light on yourself. He gave you a free 2:20:09 scan. Scans cost a lot these days, but God gave you a free scan because you served him. But if you had not served him and you stay away from taking part in the conference and doing anything, you don't get any light on yourself. So 2:20:25 how will you get the light on yourself and be free from honor seeking and praying? By praying. How will you get free from seeking honor and testifying? By testifying. That's why some of you have not got free from it after so many 2:20:38 years because you don't pray. You don't testify and the devil manages to shut your mouth. But I know that from next week onwards it's going to be a rush for the pulpit and a rush for prayer. You know, do you remember the time when 2:20:55 those Sri Lankan brothers came here for a conference some years ago? How nobody got a chance to go and testify because you couldn't beat them. Those people who are converted come just one year or so. They used to rush the young 12-year-old 2:21:09 boys would rush to the uh pulpit to give their testimony and boy nobody in CFC stood a chance. CFC people were still sitting and judging themselves while these people are out. These people are out giving testimony and getting light 2:21:21 on themselves. So be like that >> brother. You didn't answer the question. The secret of your Christian life. >> Oh >> yes. That was a question that you asked and >> very sharp reporter sister. >> That's true. What you say is absolutely 2:21:36 right. He asked me that question. I didn't answer it. >> Tell us your name. >> Jacqueline. >> Jacqueline. Which paper do you represent? >> Chennai. Oh, Chennai News. Okay, fine. Okay. You know, I can't really say I'm 2:21:55 I'm not trying to be humble, but I am so conscious of so many things in my life where I am working out my salvation that I can't talk as if I've got some secret to my Christian life. I 2:22:14 uh I really feel that God has been tremendously gracious to me, immensely merciful and uh I seek to be merciful to others. At the same time, if they do something to me, I'm merciful. If they if it 2:22:34 affects the church, I have to be strict. I want to be a lion in the pulpit and a lamb outside the pulpit. Jesus was a lion and a lamb, but uh an awareness of my own failings and my uh own wretched flesh in which there 2:22:52 dwells no good thing. God, I tell you, God keeps on making me aware of that in so many situations. So many situations I keep on 2:23:09 discovering. Oh Lord, when will I ever these are not necessarily conscious sins but you know unconsciously you hurt somebody unconsciously you say something which is not wise or do something. I live with a lot of remorse not 2:23:25 discouragement not condemnation but a lot of remorse and sorrow for you know particularly where it's affected other people you know some some decision as an elder I have to take decisions and I brood over it a lot I say Lord was that absolutely right was 2:23:44 that Christlike it's it's a tremendous struggle and that keeps me on my face before God and God gives me I I'll tell you honestly, my life is one of continuous repentance every day. God gives me light on so many 2:24:03 uncristlike things in my speech and I'm almost never happy with the sermon I preached. I feel that there was something there which is left out or something that could have been more anointed and I'm constantly burdened by uh I read the 2:24:22 acts of the apostles and say Lord we're nowhere near the way those apostles lived and I burdened about you know seeing God work mightily. I can say that to me if there is a secret at all, it is the fact that I 2:24:39 have sought for light on my own life from God very seriously every day. And God gives me light and I'm immensely thankful to God when he gives me light on myself because I can judge myself without getting discouraged. I I'll tell 2:24:56 you honestly, I never get discouraged. It's years since I got discouraged. I never condemn myself but I'm repenting all the time. Can you understand that? To repent all the time without ever getting discouraged, without ever 2:25:10 condemning myself because I believe the blood of Jesus. But it also helps me to have low thoughts about myself. And then I have been the recipient of tremendous grace. One other thing God has told me when I say that I mean in my heart never 2:25:27 evaluate yourself by the success of your ministry. That means my ministry, the blessing on my ministry is no indication of my life, my walk with God. You know there are many who cast out demons in Jesus name. The Lord says depart from me 2:25:44 you workers of iniquity. So ministry you know many people other people evaluate me by the success of my ministry. God said let them do that but you don't evaluate yourself by the success of your ministry anytime. Evaluate yourself by 2:25:59 your walk with me in purity. And that's where I see my need all the time because my great passion in life is to be like Christ. >> Stann would you like to say something also? >> My life is a ordinary housewife's life. 2:26:19 So I face um the things which most mothers and sisters face and um I I face each day with what it comes like someday may be an extra load or somebody may come to me for some help or some 2:26:37 phone call may come and I ask the Lord for help and say Lord today you give me strength to do what and wisdom to do what I should do and um sometimes I used to I I mean when I was younger I used to imagine myself doing great 2:26:54 I mean great things like in a medical profession or big things but God has helped me to come down to be content with the uh boundary circle which he has put me in and he has helped me and I find that dependence on the lord has 2:27:13 been my u the thing which has he has taught me and my greatest need and and uh I thank God for that. >> I want to say one more thing. You know, one of the unfortunate not unfortunate but one of the serious things when you're in responsibility and in a 2:27:32 position like I am is people tend to take something you say and sometimes it becomes a law for them or sometimes they use it as an allowance. One has to be very careful these days because even a few sexual scenes even one 10 seconds or 2:27:51 so a lot of today's movies have that can pollute your mind. It can remain there forever. Be extremely extremely careful. There's hardly anything that comes out of western countries today which is they put that in without any connection to 2:28:08 the story just to pollute people's minds and we to be very very careful if you you know our life is like to be like a sharp sword or knife for God don't let it don't say the knife is there is it becoming blunt is it becoming blunt is 2:28:23 anything you do or see blunting your spiritual edge then what do you gain by Find a relaxation in something that does not blunt your spiritual edge or does not pollute your mind. >> There's a question here cuz I don't I do 2:28:39 not come from a close-knit family and because of this I'm not able to handle friendships and relationships. Can you advise? >> Yeah, you know I don't know brother or sister. Jesus came from a home. You know, Jesus 2:28:58 became like us. Have you ever heard in your life of anybody who was born in a cow shed? Even in the slums, nobody's born in a cow shed. I've never in my life heard of a human being born in the midst of cows and donkeys with 2:29:15 all that tetanas around the do. Doctors say that the thing that a woman should be careful about when she gives birth is tetanas. Anti-tetanus injections they give to every woman when she's delivering and a cow shed is the place full of tetanas. 2:29:30 Imagine Jesus being born over there. Why was he born? Why did God choose that? Because he had to come underneath everybody. Why did he allow Jesus to suffer the shame of being considered an illegitimate child? Because they say 2:29:45 they would say nobody knows who his father is. Have you noticed in uh some places he says oh he's the son of Mary. When they were happy with him, they would call him the son of Joseph. When they were angry with him, they'd call 2:29:56 him the son of Mary. You know, the very subtle way of insulting, saying, "We don't know who his father is." Notice that in the gospels, you read that in Luke 4, son of Joseph. When he was happy with them or when they despised him, 2:30:06 Mark 6, oh, this is the son of Mary. So, he faced that because there are so many illegitimate children in the world who they don't know who their father is. They were born in adultery or they were born through their parents having 2:30:19 premarital sex or something like that. Okay. So what Jesus understands that and then in the same way Jesus came from a home where he had four brothers and at least two sisters. You read that in Mark 6 and they didn't understand him. So in 2:30:33 a sense he was a lonely person in a not at all close-knit. Maybe the others were close-knit but Jesus was like a lonely person. Why? Because he needed to understand someone like you who comes from a family which is not close-knit. 2:30:46 And he understands. What I want you to see is Jesus is the closest friend that you can ever have because he understands everything that you have gone through. Maybe you've lost a father when you were young or you lost a mother when you were 2:31:01 young. Jesus understands that. I don't know what age Jesus was when his u when Joseph died. He the responsibility fell upon him. But many many circumstances of your life, he understands even if nobody else understands. And don't make the 2:31:15 circumstances of your life an excuse for not doing what the Bible tells you to do. Don't, you know, psychologists will say, "Oh, well, we understand you were abused in childhood. Oh, your mother died or your father died, so that's 2:31:29 forgivable." Rubbish. That's for people who don't know God. Once you make an excuse, like I told you in the beginning, like Adam, the moment you make an excuse for your sin, there's very little hope for you. But take the 2:31:43 blame 100% for your sin. There's tremendous hope for you. Don't ever ever ever listen to the psychologists who say, "Oh, that's because you were abused as a child. Oh, that's because you became an orphan or that's because 2:31:57 you're from not a close-knit family." You know, these are all ways by which the devil wants you to feel sorry for yourself. And do you know that feeling sorry for yourself is a sin? It's like committing adultery. Why should I feel 2:32:11 sorry for myself when I become a child of God in the midst of multitudes of people who are going to hell? Why should anybody here feel sorry for himself? When you're a child of God, God's blessed you with every spiritual 2:32:23 blessing in heavenly places in Christ. You come to a church where you heard such wonderful truths and you feel sorry for yourself. That is because you're listening to psychologists and people who talk say, "No, I'm a child of God. 2:32:35 Okay, God has my circumstances are not the very best. So what? But I can overcome that and become a greater overcomer. Supposing you're from a non not a close-knit family and you overcome that handicap and you become a zealous 2:32:50 Christian. Do you know that you have overcome something which a person from a close-knit family could not did not overcome because they were not tempted in that way. So you become a greater overcomer. The result is one day God 2:33:04 will use you to bless somebody who's also from a difficult family situation and you can say brother I understand your situation very well sister I understand your situation because I'm from that type of situation myself. 2:33:17 So if you've gone through that or supposing uh you're an orphan had no father and mother and you didn't feel sorry for yourself say well that what can I do if my father and mother died when I was small that's not my fault but 2:33:31 I thank God my Lord picked me up and I'm a child of God I'm a happy person imagine what a tremendous ministry you'll have to so many orphans in the world telling them don't feel sorry for yourself I was also from that type of 2:33:43 situation and see what God did with my life but if you feel sorry for yourself and listen to all these psychologists and feel sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. You'll just waste your life. So believe that every handicap that you have in 2:33:56 your life is an opportunity to overcome something that'll make you a greater overcomer which another person who does not have that to overcome will not uh need. Okay, we can have that first. 2:34:19 >> Uh, in my day-to-day life, uh, without my knowledge, I start thinking highly of myself. Then suddenly I realized that I was thinking highly of myself. How can I overcome that? >> I don't think you can ever overcome that 2:34:30 except by practice over a period of time. You know it's like let me I the best example I can use was uh supposing I have lived in this house where I've lived for 30 years and supposing next month I shift to another area 2:34:50 and one day I'm driving down Wheeler Road and I'm thinking of something else and I take this turning and I've gone in here and say hey this is not my house now and I turn around. That's what happens in our thought life. 2:35:05 We have always taken certain turnings towards high thoughts, selfishness, sin. And then sometimes when we are not careful, we're a little careless. We take that turning again. But it's accidental. And as soon as you realize 2:35:19 it, hey, you turn back and say, I'm going to my new house. My new that's my old house. I'm not going to go back there again. You don't have to feel condemned about it. Over a period of time, you'll automatically, even when 2:35:30 you're unconscious, find your way to your new house. But it takes time. It's because you're a young Christian and that old house is still pretty close to your present stage of development. Gradually it becomes less and less and 2:35:44 less. And sometimes you know pride for example spiritual pride comes uh in a moment particularly when you have done something really well uh you feel a little proud about it. It could be saying something, it could be sharing 2:35:57 something that blessed others. It could be playing a musical instrument. It could be anything. and you feel proud in the moment but immediately you say hey that's not the way Jesus went. If you turn from it as soon as you're aware of 2:36:08 it, I believe that's a good sign because you can say in a sense you were unconsciously going in that you didn't deliberately want to go there. You unconsciously went there and suddenly you pulled yourself back. That's a good 2:36:21 sign that you pulled yourself back and gradually it'll become better and better as time goes on. But don't get two things should never take place in any of your life. Self- condemnation and discouragement. There's a no entry sign 2:36:33 on those two roads. Please remember no entry sign. Follow the traffic rules. Discouragement and self- condemnation. No entry one way only. That means people can come out of it but no going into it. Okay. We have some questions. I think u 2:36:49 they seem to be along the same lines. So I'll read them out. It says you talked about thoughts wandering while praying. It also tends to wander while reading the Bible. What do we do? And then there's the same one in the on the same 2:37:05 lines. When I pray, I get some distracting thoughts and I'm not sure that my prayer is going to the father that he listens to me. I I get doubts that it's going to someone else other than Jesus. What should I do? 2:37:24 And on the same lines, when I pray, I get some wandering thoughts and I feel that I'm not praying to God. and that my prayers are going somewhere else other than to Jesus. Maybe it's the same question. I think what should I do to be 2:37:38 sure that Jesus is the one I'm praying to and that he's listening and on the same line the Bible says to lift up holy hands doesn't speak only to the brothers. How do you remain humble always? Yeah. See wandering thoughts is part of 2:37:54 the because we have a flesh and um I don't know maybe you I haven't come to that stage myself yet where I can concentrate even for any short length of time without sometimes I can sometimes I can't I'm just I've just got a flesh but 2:38:10 wandering does not mean into sin it's usually into things that you're supposed to do today or tomorrow or uh in fact I found if you want to remember something just kneel down to pray and the devil remind you all the things you're 2:38:23 supposed to do. Uh it's usually things like that that distract you and something else you're dealing with or it's not necessarily sinful things but I say okay to me I believe that the Lord understands and he knows we are human. 2:38:43 He knows we are in the flesh and um I feel that we don't have to worry too much about it. Like I said, you take the wrong turning and you pull yourself back. What do you do if you took a wrong turning? Once you realize it's a wrong 2:38:56 turning, turn back and take the right road. You don't condemn yourself for the rest of the day. Oh, that day I took the wrong turning. Okay, you took a wrong turning. How many times even in traffic, we sometimes don't know the way or 2:39:05 accidentally missed the road. Then we have to turn back and we waste some time. It's okay. It's not such a serious thing. I believe that if we are sincere, then we can be sure our praying prayer is going to Jesus. We don't have any 2:39:18 feeling. I don't know how you have a feeling it's going to some other place. How do you know it's going to some other place? We pray and we don't have any great consciousness that Jesus has heard me or we live by faith and faith is one 2:39:32 of those mysterious things which we can't really explain. But as you grow older and you walk with the Lord, if you're sincere, that's the only thing I've said to myself. Lord, am I sincere? Am I judging anybody else? Am I is 2:39:46 thinking that I'm better than you know I'll tell you honestly there are some times when I have shut my eyes and imagined the judgment seat of Christ and people being called up for rewards and I have pictured everybody in CFC 2:40:04 getting a reward before me. I said Lord I it's possible it'll be like that. The first will be last and the last will be first. And um how do I know? There may be lots of people sitting in CFC who are far more sincere than I am. I may be more gifted. But 2:40:23 rewards in heaven are not based on gift. So it's sincerity. So it's good always to live in low thoughts about oursel. And if we are sincere, God will listen to us. Even if we don't have any great feeling of it, we pray. 2:40:39 And you know, God loves sincere people. And if you're sincere, um there's a song, one of the hymns in English, prayer is the soul's sincere desire, uttered or unexpressed. That 2:40:56 means whether it's spoken or not spoken is the soul's sincere desire. And if you have a sincere desire, even if you don't say it, that's a prayer to God. And very often I found that in my life. I never prayed something, but it was my desire. 2:41:11 And God answered it. And I can say that was an answer to prayer. But did you actually pray it? No, I didn't. That was my desire. Okay. When we seek God for an answer, how can we know that the answers from God or just an idea from our brain? 2:41:26 How can we make out? >> Okay. When I pray for example for healing and I take medicine or go to surgery and I'm healed, I thank God for the doctor and I thank God for the medicine. But I say God healed me. Why do we pray over our food? Because we 2:41:44 believe that it's God who gives us physical health and this food. But I he uses food. He uses medicine. But we thank God for a safe journey. It's a scooter that took us from one place to another. But God preserved us from 2:41:59 accidents. So in the same way, we recognize that even if we have used means, it's God who answered that. So in every situation the question was um >> I know it's from our brain or >> yeah the other is is an idea if I ask 2:42:16 God for something and I get a thought how do I know it's from God or I believe that if it is from God there'll be a peace about it. Romans 8:6 says, "The mind of the Holy Spirit is life and peace." And if you find an upsurge of 2:42:29 life in you and a peaceful rest in your spirit when you think about that particular course of action, that is usually an indication it is from God. If there's a restlessness when you think about marriage to somebody or taking 2:42:43 that job or something, the restlessness, that means it's not usually from God. And as you pray about it, the restlessness increases, then it's not from God. But if the peace increases and the circumstances around also are 2:42:55 suitable to that direction then you take it. There's no voice from heaven. That is how I've usually found God's will in my life. And uh whether an idea is from God or whether I read scripture something speaks to my heart if it helps 2:43:08 me in my life then it's definitely from God. So these are some of the ways in which we know and of course we can also get confirmation by consulting with older mature believers if concerning a decision. Okay, we'll stop with these 2:43:22 three and uh uh it's one is I think Bazak has answered it but maybe you can what is your view about modernday Christian rock music and along with that in our colleges classmates crack a lot of dirty 2:43:40 jokes how should I respond to someone who cracks a joke uh of me at my face. It is pretty awkward to keep silent. You see, somebody makes fun of me. 2:43:59 I think the right thing to do is laugh. I enjoy it. It's It's at me. But if you're making a joke at somebody else, you're talking about the dirty jokes. Okay, I'll come to that. making a joke at somebody else I don't think is right 2:44:15 to laugh because that person should know at least that I don't laugh at something which is humiliating him you know we have sometimes many Christians even in fun sometimes say things we have to be very careful I know God has judged me on 2:44:29 that sometimes I say something in fun about somebody and afterwards I've gone home and I thought about it I said Lord how did that person take it did that person get hurt I mean I said it in fun that did that person get hurt and I've 2:44:45 said Lord please help me I never want to hurt another person with joke then it comes to dirty jokes I I I wouldn't act like a holy person or you fellas are sinners but I would try to make it clear well I'm really not let 2:45:02 them think I'm a dumb sort of person who can't understand the joke and um you know then I don't really laugh at something dirty which makes fun of God Or if it makes fun of God, you know, I say, "Excuse me, brother." Or, "My 2:45:15 friend, I I don't think it's wise to make fun of God." Or something dirty. I say, "Well, I'm not really He must know that I'm not interested in it. Let him think whatever he thinks." >> Yeah. It says in church, how 2:45:36 uh how could I I think it means how could I relate or ministering with boys and girls? Is uh 1 Timothy 5:2 possible today? That is treat the younger women like sisters. Is that what you're talking about? Treat the younger and the older 2:45:54 women like mothers. and um 1 Timothy 5 and verse 2, the older women as mothers, the younger women as sisters in all purity. Yeah, that I mean scripture is valid for all times and so I believe that's possible today 2:46:13 and I believe we should treat sisters in purity but because of the prevailing atmosphere you know in Paul's time it was much easier culture itself prevented people from and in the villages in India it's somewhat like similar to what it 2:46:27 was in those days but because of the freedom there is nowadays between boys and girls you have to be very careful in relationship with sisters uh young sisters particularly very very careful and you must keep a certain restraint 2:46:44 that u you know uh that you say always lord keep me in purity and uh I would say that one way in which you can know there's been impurity in your relationship even in a meeting with other young brothers 2:47:04 or young sisters ers is what you dream about at night. You know, if you're really faithful to in walking with God, God will warn you by some dreams you get at night which indicate that within the last day 2:47:23 or which in the last week you were a little impure. You don't have to feel condemned over that dream, but that dream is a little warning from God. Be careful in that area because dreams are um a your subconscious got a 2:47:40 little message from your behavior. You may justify yourself by saying, "Oh, that I didn't mean anything." And you may sincerely believe that and our culture, yeah, it's okay. But your subconscious got a little message. Yeah, 2:47:55 I know what you wanted. And there was a little impurity there. And the subconscious says, "Okay, I'll feed it back to you in your dreams." and you get it in your dream and you know that that was not totally pure. Take that warning. 2:48:09 Take that warning and say, "God, forgive me. Forgive me." You know, God has protected me from so many dangers by dreams. I'll tell you honestly, so many dangers in relation to the opposite sex by dreams. 2:48:26 I remember God gave me some I don't remember was it 15 20 years ago he showed me in the drain in my dream three not all in one day at different times three sisters in our churches whom the Lord said be careful of them they were born again 2:48:45 sisters and I said Lord I'll do that and as soon as I saw that I I said yes I have to be careful of these. So if you're serious, you'll find that God warns you in a dream, not necessarily of a particular thing, but where there's been slight 2:49:02 impurity and you if you're really serious about purity, God will warn you. And then you take that warning and that holds you back from much more serious. To me, it's like I used to get sometimes little tosses from my scooter where I 2:49:16 never hurt anybody and I never broke a bone or anything, but that little toss would warn me, be careful, slow down a bit. So it's like that the Lord says in human relationships also between boys and girls the Lord is saying slow down 2:49:30 slow down we are getting too close for comfort you know these mottos written at the back of auto rickshaw keep your distance very good word for brother sister relationships keep your distance keep your distance uh this relates to what we 2:49:49 heard in the last session Um last we asked brother Zach and sistani what would be the last words they would speak to young people and brother Zach spoke about fixing our eyes on Jesus. uh together with this you know somebody 2:50:08 has asked how do we fix our eyes on Jesus in a practical way and uh last question that we can end this youth conference which I'm going to ask both brother Zach and Stani um to what would you say to young people 2:50:27 of our churches committed Christian young people who face a future future particularly in the light that we are in the end times and we don't know what the future holds. 2:50:45 What word would you like to give to young people of advice or encouragement or exhortation? And we want to print this what we heard in the last you know people put famous last words. I 2:51:04 think it was very worthwhile thinking about what we heard from Razak and sister Danny. understand he shared about being honest and submitting regarding sisters. Now you know what would be a word that you would give to this generation that's 2:51:19 growing up as they face a future which we don't know like we sing we don't know what the future holds okay concerning the first practical ways of looking to fixing our eyes on Jesus 2:51:37 you know to think that Jesus was made in everything like you and uh was tempted in everything like you. So in practical terms whenever you are tempted with anything whatever your circumstance he didn't have your circumstances 2:51:53 he never rode a scooter he never played football he played other games I'm sure but he never faced the temptations you face but he never faced the circumstances you face but he did face the temptations you face temptation to 2:52:08 seek your own pleasure to enjoy yourself instead of pleasing God etc. And to think that Lord, what did you do in a similar circumstance in Nazareth when you were tempted like I'm being tempted right now 2:52:25 or not? You know, there's a very famous saying, what would Jesus do? Now, I don't usually ask that question, but I would ask this, can I do this in fellowship with Jesus? Which is a better question. Can I do this in fellowship with Jesus 2:52:43 or can I not do it? I have to sort of keep Jesus away from this particular thing I'm going to do or where I'm going now. Can I take Jesus along with me watching this movie? Can I take Jesus along to watch it? Or this habit, can I 2:52:57 do it? Say, Lord, let's you and I do this thing together. And then you suddenly get a light that uh Jesus, I can't do that alone with Jesus. I have to sort of do it on my own. Then I've taken off the yoke from my neck and say, "Lord, I'm going off on 2:53:10 my own now for a little while. I'll come back after half an hour." And then you know you're wrong. Whatever people may say and whatever other young people may say, "Oh, it's all right. We're living in 21st century." But you know, you got 2:53:21 to give up Jesus at that short time. So you got to think now. I mean, is that something that you can do in fellowship with Jesus? Very good question to ask yourself. This is a practical way of fixing our eyes on Jesus. And the other thing in relation to 2:53:36 today's uh what I would say to young people is do you know the great need in our churches which many of us have been praying for older people is a second generation of leaders. We need second level of leadership third level of leadership. 2:53:54 And where is that got to come from? Not from we don't have Bible schools churning out pastors who come and take over churches. We don't have that. It has to come from within the church. Where have all the leaders in all our 2:54:08 churches come from? From within the churches. So in another few years, where are the leaders going to come from? From some of you sitting here. Where are all the wives of the leaders going to come from? Some of you sisters 2:54:21 sitting here. Don't you think you should take your calling seriously? I mean, and God may want you to be an elder in a church one day. God may want you to be an elder sister in a church one day. Well, you got to prepare 2:54:37 yourself now. It takes a long time to study God's word. Prepare yourself. Be and once you get married, I'll tell you the number of people I have met who tell me what I already knew that once you get married, you don't get much time to 2:54:53 study the word. It's true. Almost all the Bible knowledge I have today, factual knowledge. I'm not talking about revelation. Revelation you get all through life. But factual knowledge of the Bible, almost all the Bible knowledge I have today is what I knew 2:55:07 before I got married. Almost all of it, 90% of it. So if you don't study the Bible in your single days, I tell you, you have missed some of the most important periods of your whole life. Now I want to say to all of you who are 2:55:22 single, you don't know what opportunities you're missing by not devoting yourself to the study of God's word. Please, please, please devote yourself to it. You know, I have met some people in other churches who are so devoted to the study of the word and I 2:55:40 say, "Boy, why can't we have some people in CFC like this?" You know, there's a lot of ignorance of scripture in our midst because many of us are not seriously studying the word. And I want to encourage you, study the word. Be 2:55:53 prepared for the coming days. God wants to raise you up to be leaders. And there may submit to the authorities in your church. I mean, if they are going astray, don't follow them. But if you find really godly men uh who whose 2:56:10 example and whose ministry blesses you, uh follow such examples and don't be critical of every little thing. You know, I've seen people in our church who come to this church and they're critical and critical and critical. They don't 2:56:24 last very long. It's not the spirit of Christ. I mean, if you can do something better than what those elders are doing, it's like to me it's like these people in the stadium criticizing the 20 22 footballers on the field. Ah, he should 2:56:36 have kicked it there. He should have kicked it there. It's all very easy to say that when you're sitting in the stadium. You get out on the field, you wouldn't know where to kick it at all. You may kick it into your own goal. 2:56:46 So, it's very easy to sit in a stadium and say he should have kicked it there and he should have kicked it there and to sit in the meeting and say the that chap is boring or you try getting up and speaking. Yeah. I tell you even to speak 2:56:56 10 minutes without boring people is difficult. So don't just criticize pray for people and judge yourself and don't just be critical. Elders are trying to do a good job. They may not do a perfect job but uh support them and particularly 2:57:10 if a man is a god-fearing man to whom God has borne witness for many many years. God has borne witness to some brother or sister. I'll tell you in your own interest, respect such people. It'll go well with you. So that's my advice to 2:57:24 you. >> Yeah. And take responsibility in your local churches. I grew up by taking responsibility. You know that I would try and share God's word with a few people. Uh I'm not part of the church meeting. I'd go to some home and say, "Can I share 2:57:41 something with you?" Or maybe in your place of work, you sisters, you meet somebody and try to be friendly with that person and uh you know, bless them in some way. give them a gift and then give them the gospel. Jesus always was 2:57:57 the friend of sinners before he he asked the woman in Samaria for a water. Can you give me a glass of water? So we need wisdom and then opened up her heart to the gospel. So say Lord I I'm not capable like other people but I'm 2:58:11 available. Can you say that to God? Can all of you say Lord I'm available. Please prepare me for what you have for me in the future. standing >> many times when I've come to the uh meeting and I sit there we sisters sit 2:58:29 there this verse which is written there I look at that and that's like the message for me and I if we judge ourselves we will not be judged and when I sit here and I hear the word of God I say Lord I want to judge myself when I 2:58:44 sit here I don't want to look at think that this word is for so and so or so and so young person or and so older person. But that word is for me and for and I think that has been like a secret for me. Whatever uh word I hear, 2:58:59 whatever situation comes across my path, um I take it to judge myself. And um I just want to say really funny thing which happened in at home. uh you know my husband um has got 2:59:16 a machine to give him a little exercise and I used to think I don't need any exercise because I'm doing all the work if he does like you know like me he starts like watering the plants and things like that but he's allergic to 2:59:31 plants and dust but I was a little critical in my spirit thinking like I don't need the exercise and he used to say you can also exercise but I thought oh I don't need the exercise and that boastfulness was coming in my heart. I 2:59:45 didn't realize it and I was very busy cleaning up my house for this conference and for my guests and my children and all and I climbed up on the stool and had such a bad fall. And the Lord taugh taught me see you have the spirit of um 3:00:02 boastfulness and judging others and you need to humble yourself and you are proud that you are working so hard and every situation I want to take like that even that fall or success or whatever take it in a way where I judge myself 3:00:18 and say Lord I need to take it and I want to hear what you want to speak to me in this situation. >> Yeah. Thank you very very much. So good that we can have examples who are honest and sincere and we see reality. We really thank God. Let's 3:00:35 express our thanks and appreciation by giving them a good hand. [Applause]
